Jul. 27th, 2017 07:10 pm
ysabetwordsmith: Cartoon of me in Wordsmith persona (Default)
[personal profile] ysabetwordsmith
We went to see Spiderman today. It was a painful-to-watch paean to the misery of modern adolescence, Tony Stark's A+ parenting, and the infinite breadth of human stupidity. >_< The characters I liked best? The bad guys. They were hard-working citizens who got screwed out of jobs that were legally contracted as theirs. So they decided to do something else, by selling alien equipment. See, this is what happens when you fuck people over. It makes me want to go write Beach Hero, but I've got other stuff I'm trying to finish.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-07-28 12:41 am (UTC)
gingicat: drawing of me based on wedding photo (Default)
From: [personal profile] gingicat
This totally belongs in [community profile] metaquotes. May I?

(no subject)

Date: 2017-07-28 03:44 am (UTC)
technoshaman: (comicboy)
From: [personal profile] technoshaman
Oh, f*ck me. Marvel's screwing up by the numbers. Gives me little hope for Civil War II...

Ah, well. DC, quelle surprise, if the trailers are any indication, is NOT... so...


Date: 2017-07-28 07:14 am (UTC)
heartsinger: (Default)
From: [personal profile] heartsinger
I haven't seen it because CACW was the last straw with me for MCU canon and also I'm avoiding Disney properties until they get rid of HYDRA Cap, but all my corner of Tumblr talks about is how sweet Tony and Peter's relationship supposedly is.

Re: Interesting

Date: 2017-07-28 03:47 pm (UTC)
heartsinger: (Default)
From: [personal profile] heartsinger
>>I don't blame you. It wasn't my pick, though. I thought it would be at least bearable and my partner wanted to see it.<<

Okay. Not here to tell you what media to consume. Hope it being awful didn't ruin your day.

>>Pure bullshit. The dynamic is downright abusive. Tony treats Peter no better than DUM-E. It is a textbook example of abuse getting passed on. Tony literally says onscreen that he is talking like Howard. Which he is.<<

Ughhhhh. Fandom, I am disappoint. I think part of the problem is that both the canonical narrative and corners of fandom I don't frequent tend to blame Tony for everything, and so people are defensive. Loki has a similar problem, though that comes more as lionization.

I'm glad I didn't see it now. I'm good at not letting canon ruin my day (I'm seeing a lot of that on Tumblr lately, and it makes me so sad. Like, yes, the canon was bad. Fuck the canon, enjoy the good parts.) but seeing my favorites turn into abusive parents just might do it.

Re: Interesting

Date: 2017-07-28 07:05 pm (UTC)
heartsinger: (Default)
From: [personal profile] heartsinger

>>Tony isn't the one to blame for this clusterfuck, Howard is. I'm really pleased that's canon per the dialog, because I use this otherwise worthless movie as a great example of intergenerational abuse.<<

This gets into an ethical question I've been struggling with. Presumably Howard's parents were awful too (he got it from somewhere), so who is ultimately responsible? The first person to abuse someone, so far back in time we'll never know what happened? That seems.... nonuseful. Is anyone responsible for anything, ever? Serious question.

>>What Thor and Loki have is a raging case of Golden Child/Scapegoat syndrome. It's like watching the master's legitimate son and his favorite pickaninny. I can't look at a long view of Asgard without thinking of the Big House. The Asgardians may not keep slaves, but they sure kept the attitudes. They might as well call the giants ice n*gg*rs. And let's not forget the time Odin compared Jane to a barn animal.<<

True. You mistake my meaning, though. I was talking about fan perceptions of Loki being sometimes overblown because he does so much good and is yet the designated villain.

>>The Avengers need so much therapy, and they're not getting it, except for Steve occasionally lurking around Sam's sessions for veterans.<<

Yeah. It's so freaking frustrating that they never get better. I don't want to watch Tony have the same basic arc in every movie.

>>Remember the snippets of Tony and Howard? Imagine ~2 hours of that, less a handful of scenes between Peter and Aunt May.<<


Re: Interesting

Date: 2017-07-29 05:32 am (UTC)
dialecticdreamer: My work (Default)
From: [personal profile] dialecticdreamer
Jumping in here--

The only thing Tony DOES NOT do that is commonly ascribed to Howard is throwing a drink (and its glass) at the teen when he does something that "screws up" Tony's grand plan. Seriously, there's mental anguish, there's neglect, emotional manipulation, and a crapton of secondary indicators of abuse (Peter's body language is terrifyingly familiar to /this/ abuse survivor) on top of the outright and overt damage both Happy and Tony do to the kid!

Frankly, the only reason that I went to see it was because it (a) promised not to be a rehashed origin story and (b) the HYPE was all about this Peter Parker NOT being a social reject!

Uh. News flash there...

The creators/marketers were being DELIBERATELY and MALICIOUSLY misleading on that score.

There's a bit of REPEATED peer bullying which is so freaking HORRIBLE that the adult villain giving Peter a very calm, very understated DEATH THREAT is a warm and fuzzy scene in comparison.


IF ANYONE dealt with

- emotionally abusive or neglectful parents
- narcissistic parent(s)
- alcoholic/addicted parent(s)
- school bullying
- school administration utterly refusing to address that problem (when it is a KNOWN issue across the school)
- fair-weather friends making said bullying a crapton WORSE
- living with a secret that one believed would utterly destroy the ONE good relationship in one's life (Peter's most likely reason for NOT telling Aunt May, I think)
- an adult who takes an inappropriately INTENSE interest in them (in this case, that's actually the villain... and it still comes off better than Happy's utter dismissal)

or, finally the incredible pressure to be a "certain kind" of academic high achiever/geek...

This movie needs a warning label for any ONE issue, they are so serious. That they are ALL in the movie should tell you why I refuse to ever watch it again.

ETA: For anyone who doesn't want to be spoiled, I believe everything but the nonspecific death threat can be seen if one looks at the inverse of the trailers. (Peter is talking to either Tony or Happy on the phone in one trailer-- in the film, that's... not the case.) If anyone wants specific examples, I'm available to discuss via PM, because I don't mean to make claims THIS serious either vague or unsupported.
Edited (more info) Date: 2017-07-29 05:36 am (UTC)

Re: Interesting

Date: 2017-07-29 08:47 am (UTC)
dialecticdreamer: My work (Default)
From: [personal profile] dialecticdreamer
Peter doesn't move like a supervillain. He moves like someone who expects to get hit.

Which, certainly, isn't super hero-ish, either!

The thing I noticed, especially when compared to the OTHER dynamics between various movie versions of Peter and Aunt May is how great the PHYSICAL distance usually is between the actress and the actor.

Conversely, the physical affection between the Rosemary Harris "Aunt May" and Peter, and the Sally Field version in "The Amazing Spider-Man 2," were both approachable, with an understated warmth that the current Aunt May just doesn't seem to show. Aunt May can be one of the FINEST BAMF women in the entire Marvelverse, but the MOVIE versions just get watered down to these one-note bits of talking SCENERY.

It's nauseating, how very awesome May Parker COULD be, without ever detracting from Peter Perker/Spider-Man's core focus, but studio execs in particular seem to want to erase her as anything but a sop to the idea that teens have legal guardians. The whole Tony/May thing with the newest actress is just... sixty kinds of BLERGH!

(no subject)

Date: 2017-07-28 09:37 am (UTC)
rivulet027: (Default)
From: [personal profile] rivulet027
I was glad that Peter had a support system other than Tony and Happy.


Date: 2017-07-29 05:44 am (UTC)
dialecticdreamer: My work (Default)
From: [personal profile] dialecticdreamer
Jeez, I don't call that support at ALL, and I've joked that my kids need a DNA test to determine IF they have any human DNA-- to their faces.

The only response was, "So, will you finally tell us which planet YOU'RE from?"

(Planet Snark, obviously, kid!)

He doesn't get to socialize with his friends because of the time he spends as Spider-Man, he's cutting out extracurricular activities to make MORE time for Spider-Man, trying to impress Tony/Happy, and instead of ASKING what's going on, his friends dismiss Peter's radical, extremely worrying changes in behavior (check a list of warning signs for suicidal depression in teens, for example) as Peter /flaking out on THEM/.

Worse, all three of the teachers who supposedly favor Peter, ignore the changes ENTIRELY, and the administration only messes the situation up MORE.

Re: Support?

Date: 2017-07-29 06:15 am (UTC)
dialecticdreamer: My work (Default)
From: [personal profile] dialecticdreamer
For a good exploration of the phenomenon of 'human vending machines,' watch "Gifted," with Chris Evans.

Seriously. I'd rather watch that movie's one trailer on REPEAT for the duration of Spider Man: Homecoming than EVEN just watch the Stan Lee cameo from the latter.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-07-28 09:47 am (UTC)
neotoma: Neotoma albigula, the white-throated woodrat! [default icon] (Default)
From: [personal profile] neotoma
My friends and I debated for two hours whether or not the government would have to pay off Tooms' wrecking crew for breaking the contract. We came to the conclusion that yes the government could have broken the contract, but they would have been liable for so much money, especially because Tooms' guys couldn't be the only crew working on the NYC clean-up. There would have been so many small businesses with broken contracts that it would have involved massive lawsuits.

And yeah, Tony and Happy totally mishandled Peter. Keeping him minimally informed, to the level of 'thanks for the info about the flying vulture guy, we're handling it now' would have kept him from thinking he had to act on his own. And the end, where Tony is totally willing to put a 15-year-old in front of a press conference and announce him as an Avenger...wtf? Why did Pepper let it get that far? The liability of doing that to a minor, without his guardian's knowledge, is astronomical!

Broken contract

Date: 2017-07-29 05:49 am (UTC)
dialecticdreamer: My work (Default)
From: [personal profile] dialecticdreamer
JUST the broken contract with Toom's company would have been enough of a lawsuit to garner international attention for at least five YEARS, even if it was resolved behind closed doors with nondisclosure agreements handed out like Pez.

I find it more interesting NOT that Marvel took this shortcut (a plot hole you can throw a semi through), but the usual response when I brought it up among my friends (middle age, almost all college-educated) was, "Well, sure, that's just saying out loud what the government does already."

I wanna move somewhere sane, please.

Re: Broken contract

Date: 2017-07-29 06:20 am (UTC)
dialecticdreamer: My work (Default)
From: [personal profile] dialecticdreamer
Ghettos aren't the only places with drug problems.

One of the MAJOR developments out of the housing bust in the valley was a new kind of crime-- people would find a foreclosed or walk-away property and /literally/ steal it, officially. Then again, Wells Fargo was caught foreclosing on and SELLING houses that they did not own, so it's more like the little guy imitating the big guy in that case.

The other development: walk-away properties becoming drug labs. "New renters" would move in, or a team of "painters" would come in and any gossipy neighbors would be told that the house was going to be fluffed and flipped... the most notorious bust I know of happened in a property area that starts at 1.5 MILLION dollars. Meet your new neighbors, and their at home small business: drug manufacturing.

Re: Broken contract

Date: 2017-07-29 07:19 am (UTC)
dialecticdreamer: My work (Default)
From: [personal profile] dialecticdreamer
True. Wells Fargo is at it AGAIN, (long rant deleted) but notice that the people who got fired were the little guys DOING the work, not the jerks who APPROVED THE PROCESS?

IE, the ones who set up the scam?

Frankly, I think that Peter Parker was safer with Mister Tooms than the jerks who took over the cleanup (if you recall which scene I'm thinking of). Tooms wanted Spider Man dead, but followed neutrality rules that T-America would immediately recognize.

The other people? Pure greed-driven sociopaths.

Re: Broken contract

Date: 2017-07-29 07:47 am (UTC)
dialecticdreamer: My work (Default)
From: [personal profile] dialecticdreamer

Tooms was a complex villain, ESPECIALLY by Marvel's standards. Loving husband, clearly not racist (both his work crew and his family stand as proof, without offering spoilers), and determined to keep his company afloat after getting S-----D out of a legitimate contract...

Ironically, Tony Stark was already absurdly wealthy, was the one who manipulated the broken contract in HIS favor, and clearly had NO qualms about sticking a fifteen-year-old kid in front of the press as an Avenger... without ever BOTHERING to inform the kid's guardian what was going on, and what risks JUST putting him on camera (in a world FULL TO BURSTING with facial recognition software, including that which can identify someone from the BACK of their head, not even their FACE!) could entail for the whole family.

So who was the official villain of the story, again?

Re: Broken contract

Date: 2017-07-29 03:52 pm (UTC)
neotoma: Neotoma albigula, the white-throated woodrat! [default icon] (Default)
From: [personal profile] neotoma
The problem is the contract was with the city of New York, and Damage Control was supposedly a Federal Department (or agency?) -- the city would probably have been fighting the feds along with all the small business owners (because there is no way Tooms had the only contract for clean-up), if only because eliminating that many jobs and the knock-on economic effects would have been a major blow during a time when the city needed to get back on its feet ASAP.

Tony doesn't own an entire subdivision of the US federal government -- or at least, he *shouldn't*.

Re: Broken contract

Date: 2017-07-29 05:12 pm (UTC)
dialecticdreamer: My work (Default)
From: [personal profile] dialecticdreamer
It's supposedly a Federal agency, one I would make a subdivision of FEMA.

And we all know how well FEMA handled its last crisis...

The whole noxious idea that the government would do THIS better than handling the Katrina crisis strains credulity to the breaking point.

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Date: 2017-07-28 02:26 am (UTC)
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ysabetwordsmith: Cartoon of me in Wordsmith persona (Default)

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