Story: "Hide and Seek" Part 53
Dec. 11th, 2013 12:01 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ysabetwordsmithThis story is a sequel to "Love Is for Children," "Eggshells," "Dolls and Guys," "Turnabout Is Fair Play," and "Touching Moments," "Splash," "Coming Around," "Birthday Girl," and "No Winter Lasts Forever."
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS, Bucky Barnes, Virginia "Pepper" Potts.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse, mind control, and other torture. Current environment is supportive.
Summary: Bucky has a bad day when his memory won't boot up quite right. This makes other people stressed out too. Attempts to help are partially successful, but then the team dynamics go severely pear-shaped.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Sibling relationships. Fix-it. Teamwork. Vulgar language. Flangst. Hurt/Comfort. Fear of loss. Friendship. Confusion. Memory loss. Nonsexual ageplay. Making up for lost time. Self-harm. Tony!whump. Tony Stark has a heart. Tony doesn't like being handed things. Howard Stark's A+ parenting. Games. Trust issues. Consent. Safety and security. Artificial intelligence. Food issues. Multiplicity/Plurality. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Yoga. Communication. Personal growth. Cooking. Americana. Family of choice. Feels. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16, Part 17, Part 18, Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22, Part 23, Part 24, Part 25, Part 26, Part 27, Part 28, Part 29, Part 30, Part 31, Part 32, Part 33, Part 34, Part 35, Part 36, Part 37, Part 38, Part 39, Part 40, Part 41, Part 42, Part 43, Part 44, Part 45, Part 46, Part 47, Part 48, Part 49, Part 50, Part 51, Part 52. Skip to Part 55, Part 56.
"Hide and Seek" Part 53
A timer dinged. Bruce pulled a pie out of the upper oven. This one had a solid crust, now baked to perfect golden brown, with a star pricked into the center. Steam billowed up, smelling like fruit and a cozy family afternoon and home. The rich aroma made Phil's mouth water. Then his stomach growled.
Bucky laughed. "Here, have a Starkbar," he said, pushing the box toward Phil. The two supersoldiers had clearly been snacking while they worked, their appetites increased by the scent of food.
"Thanks," Phil said. It was a mixed box, so he took one of the peanut bars and munched that to take the edge off his hunger.
Bruce lifted the lid from the crockpot. More delectable steam poured forth. Bruce poked at the beef stew with a fork, then shook his head. "This needs a while longer to cook. The potatoes and carrots are still a little stiff."
"Say, how about biscuits to go with supper?" Phil offered. The savory stew reminded him of his grandmother's kitchen. She always made fresh biscuits to go with it, and Phil didn't want to settle for bakery buns today.
"That would be great," said Bruce.
"Okay, I need buttermilk, flour, baking soda ..." Phil listed the ingredients. Bucky and Steve already had some of them on the table and simply pushed those in his direction. Bruce fetched the rest. "JARVIS, please preheat an oven to 450°F."
"Acknowledged," JARVIS said, and the amber light flicked on.
Phil mixed the dough, enjoying the chance to spend time with his people. Steve and Bucky seemed well recovered from the recent stress. Phil felt grateful that Bruce had taken care of them while Phil mostly had his hands full with Tony. Nobody wanted Bucky to feel guilty about the support he needed while healing. The dough came together under Phil's hands. He tipped it onto the pastry mat. Bruce brought him the marble rolling pin, cold from the refrigerator, to roll out the biscuits. Then Phil realized something else was missing, and his hands were all over dough.
"Ack, biscuit cutter, I forgot to ask --" Phil said.
Steve held out a ring of metal that had probably started life as a tuna can. Worn tape covered the top edge, while the bottom edge was sharp and free of burrs. "Here, you can use mine," Steve said. "Tony has a cookie-cutter one with a handle if you want it, but I don't think it works as well. So I made this and a flower shape and some other stuff."
Phil took the repurposed can and briskly stamped out a set of biscuits. He transferred them to the baking sheet. Then he rerolled the dough and cut a few more rounds. He popped the last scrap of dough into his mouth. Finally he slid the biscuits into the upper oven. "JARVIS, twelve minutes on the timer, please." The digital counter activated.
Bruce gave the rolling pin a quick wipe-down and returned it to the refrigerator. Phil turned back to tidy up the remains of biscuit-making. He heard footsteps behind him, and glanced over his shoulder.
"Oh my gosh, Steve Rogers is baking apple pies in my kitchen!" Tony exclaimed, clinging to the doorframe. "I think we just reached a critical mass of Americana."
At least I'm not the only one to get hit square in the nostalgia by this, Phil thought.
"You don't have to keep hugging the door, Tony," said Steve. "Come on over and join us, if you like."
Tony's knuckles turned white where he clutched the wood. "I, I can't cook. You can ask Pepper. I think she wrote it down somewhere. Tony Stark is a terrible cook."
Phil realized that Tony was holding himself back, not for the first time, because he didn't feel that he deserved -- or could get -- whatever it was he wanted. Answers, achievements, possessions, he'll go after those; personal connections, far less often. That's a bad habit that needs breaking, Phil thought. Besides, people have been giving Tony space since the garage fight, maybe a little too much space. We need to coax him back toward the center of the group.
"Did anyone ever teach you cooking?" Bucky asked Tony.
" ... no?" Tony said. He leaned forward, though, held in place only by his death grip on the doorframe.
"Come here," Bucky invited. "We'll teach you how."
Tony glowed. His smile completely outshone the faint gleam of the arc reactor through his shirt. "Okay," he said. He scampered across the room --
-- and plunked himself in Bucky's lap.
Fortunately the supersoldier was just tall enough to see over him. Bucky gave Phil a questioning look.
Phil nodded confirmation of Tony's sudden drop in age. It came as a surprise after the recent tension. The timing worried Phil a little, because they hadn't gotten very long to let things settle.
Maybe all the talking has helped after all, Phil mused. I hope that this works out well and restores the trust between Tony and Bucky, if they can just keep the tone in the right place. Steve and I can help hold things stable. Phil couldn't help smiling, though. Apparently the secret to leading Tony was as simple as making him want to follow you.
That reminded Phil of the devastating violation by Obadiah Stane, who had been more father figure than business partner to Tony. Phil winced inwardly. It's a wonder Tony can still trust anyone's authority, Phil thought.
"Right now we're making apple pies. They're really easy," Bucky said. "We need more apples. We also need a fresh pie plate, along with flour and butter and stuff for the crust ..." He went on to summarize the process.
Tony reached for the fruit knife.
Steve whisked it out of his reach. "Let me do this part; it's a little tricky," he said. "I wouldn't want you to cut yourself."
Tony stared at him with huge eyes. " ... okay," he said. His right thumb rubbed slowly over his fingertips.
* * *
Notes:
Phil is making Southern Buttermilk Biscuits. A fan asked me about gluten free biscuits, so I've added some references: Gluten Free Buttermilk Biscuits (similar to Phil's), Gluten Free Biscuits (made with almond milk, and a GF flour mix linked from another page), and Gluten Free Biscuits (billed as a tolerant, easy recipe). See also "5 Secrets to Fluffy, Sky-high Gluten Free Biscuits."
A marble rolling pin requires a little extra care, but is a handy kitchen tool especially in combination with a marble board. Using marble tools helps to keep dough cold.
You can make your own biscuit cutter from a can, including simple shapes like a flower. Aluminum from soda cans or baking tins is easier to work than steel cans, but not as sturdy. This video about making dough cutters has the first USEFUL pop-up I have ever seen in my life: it gives you a link to the recipe for the cookies. I wish more people would do THIS instead of waving aggravating crap in my face.
Americana is the collection of cultural material that invokes the spirit of the United States. You can see why Steve Rogers and apple pie would rouse strong feelings of nostalgia.
Negative feedback can discourage people from learning new skills, especially in areas outside their expertise. Pepper's canonical habit of yowling at Tony for doing things wrong, instead of showing him how to do better, is not very helpful. Overcoming discouragement is an important life skill. Learn to deal with unsupportive people and to work past discouragement.
Tony often holds himself back because he feels that he doesn't deserve good things. Life has taught him to do for himself, since other people more often try to take advantage of him than help him. There are tips for feeling good enough.
Effective leadership skills entail making people want to follow you by understanding their needs and accepting their admiration. Teaching is a crucial leadership ability so that you can help people fulfill their potential. Steve has always looked up to Bucky and credited him with providing a moral compass; now we're starting to see Bucky's leadership ability in action, where Captain America really came from.
[To be continued in Part 54 ...]
Fandom: The Avengers
Characters: Phil Coulson, Clint Barton, Natasha Romanova, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner, Steve Rogers, Betty Ross, JARVIS, Bucky Barnes, Virginia "Pepper" Potts.
Medium: Fiction
Warnings: Inferences of past child abuse, mind control, and other torture. Current environment is supportive.
Summary: Bucky has a bad day when his memory won't boot up quite right. This makes other people stressed out too. Attempts to help are partially successful, but then the team dynamics go severely pear-shaped.
Notes: Asexual character (Clint). Aromantic character (Natasha). Asexual relationship. Sibling relationships. Fix-it. Teamwork. Vulgar language. Flangst. Hurt/Comfort. Fear of loss. Friendship. Confusion. Memory loss. Nonsexual ageplay. Making up for lost time. Self-harm. Tony!whump. Tony Stark has a heart. Tony doesn't like being handed things. Howard Stark's A+ parenting. Games. Trust issues. Consent. Safety and security. Artificial intelligence. Food issues. Multiplicity/Plurality. Non-sexual touching and intimacy. Yoga. Communication. Personal growth. Cooking. Americana. Family of choice. Feels. #coulsonlives.
Begin with Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6, Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10, Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14, Part 15, Part 16, Part 17, Part 18, Part 19, Part 20, Part 21, Part 22, Part 23, Part 24, Part 25, Part 26, Part 27, Part 28, Part 29, Part 30, Part 31, Part 32, Part 33, Part 34, Part 35, Part 36, Part 37, Part 38, Part 39, Part 40, Part 41, Part 42, Part 43, Part 44, Part 45, Part 46, Part 47, Part 48, Part 49, Part 50, Part 51, Part 52. Skip to Part 55, Part 56.
"Hide and Seek" Part 53
A timer dinged. Bruce pulled a pie out of the upper oven. This one had a solid crust, now baked to perfect golden brown, with a star pricked into the center. Steam billowed up, smelling like fruit and a cozy family afternoon and home. The rich aroma made Phil's mouth water. Then his stomach growled.
Bucky laughed. "Here, have a Starkbar," he said, pushing the box toward Phil. The two supersoldiers had clearly been snacking while they worked, their appetites increased by the scent of food.
"Thanks," Phil said. It was a mixed box, so he took one of the peanut bars and munched that to take the edge off his hunger.
Bruce lifted the lid from the crockpot. More delectable steam poured forth. Bruce poked at the beef stew with a fork, then shook his head. "This needs a while longer to cook. The potatoes and carrots are still a little stiff."
"Say, how about biscuits to go with supper?" Phil offered. The savory stew reminded him of his grandmother's kitchen. She always made fresh biscuits to go with it, and Phil didn't want to settle for bakery buns today.
"That would be great," said Bruce.
"Okay, I need buttermilk, flour, baking soda ..." Phil listed the ingredients. Bucky and Steve already had some of them on the table and simply pushed those in his direction. Bruce fetched the rest. "JARVIS, please preheat an oven to 450°F."
"Acknowledged," JARVIS said, and the amber light flicked on.
Phil mixed the dough, enjoying the chance to spend time with his people. Steve and Bucky seemed well recovered from the recent stress. Phil felt grateful that Bruce had taken care of them while Phil mostly had his hands full with Tony. Nobody wanted Bucky to feel guilty about the support he needed while healing. The dough came together under Phil's hands. He tipped it onto the pastry mat. Bruce brought him the marble rolling pin, cold from the refrigerator, to roll out the biscuits. Then Phil realized something else was missing, and his hands were all over dough.
"Ack, biscuit cutter, I forgot to ask --" Phil said.
Steve held out a ring of metal that had probably started life as a tuna can. Worn tape covered the top edge, while the bottom edge was sharp and free of burrs. "Here, you can use mine," Steve said. "Tony has a cookie-cutter one with a handle if you want it, but I don't think it works as well. So I made this and a flower shape and some other stuff."
Phil took the repurposed can and briskly stamped out a set of biscuits. He transferred them to the baking sheet. Then he rerolled the dough and cut a few more rounds. He popped the last scrap of dough into his mouth. Finally he slid the biscuits into the upper oven. "JARVIS, twelve minutes on the timer, please." The digital counter activated.
Bruce gave the rolling pin a quick wipe-down and returned it to the refrigerator. Phil turned back to tidy up the remains of biscuit-making. He heard footsteps behind him, and glanced over his shoulder.
"Oh my gosh, Steve Rogers is baking apple pies in my kitchen!" Tony exclaimed, clinging to the doorframe. "I think we just reached a critical mass of Americana."
At least I'm not the only one to get hit square in the nostalgia by this, Phil thought.
"You don't have to keep hugging the door, Tony," said Steve. "Come on over and join us, if you like."
Tony's knuckles turned white where he clutched the wood. "I, I can't cook. You can ask Pepper. I think she wrote it down somewhere. Tony Stark is a terrible cook."
Phil realized that Tony was holding himself back, not for the first time, because he didn't feel that he deserved -- or could get -- whatever it was he wanted. Answers, achievements, possessions, he'll go after those; personal connections, far less often. That's a bad habit that needs breaking, Phil thought. Besides, people have been giving Tony space since the garage fight, maybe a little too much space. We need to coax him back toward the center of the group.
"Did anyone ever teach you cooking?" Bucky asked Tony.
" ... no?" Tony said. He leaned forward, though, held in place only by his death grip on the doorframe.
"Come here," Bucky invited. "We'll teach you how."
Tony glowed. His smile completely outshone the faint gleam of the arc reactor through his shirt. "Okay," he said. He scampered across the room --
-- and plunked himself in Bucky's lap.
Fortunately the supersoldier was just tall enough to see over him. Bucky gave Phil a questioning look.
Phil nodded confirmation of Tony's sudden drop in age. It came as a surprise after the recent tension. The timing worried Phil a little, because they hadn't gotten very long to let things settle.
Maybe all the talking has helped after all, Phil mused. I hope that this works out well and restores the trust between Tony and Bucky, if they can just keep the tone in the right place. Steve and I can help hold things stable. Phil couldn't help smiling, though. Apparently the secret to leading Tony was as simple as making him want to follow you.
That reminded Phil of the devastating violation by Obadiah Stane, who had been more father figure than business partner to Tony. Phil winced inwardly. It's a wonder Tony can still trust anyone's authority, Phil thought.
"Right now we're making apple pies. They're really easy," Bucky said. "We need more apples. We also need a fresh pie plate, along with flour and butter and stuff for the crust ..." He went on to summarize the process.
Tony reached for the fruit knife.
Steve whisked it out of his reach. "Let me do this part; it's a little tricky," he said. "I wouldn't want you to cut yourself."
Tony stared at him with huge eyes. " ... okay," he said. His right thumb rubbed slowly over his fingertips.
* * *
Notes:
Phil is making Southern Buttermilk Biscuits. A fan asked me about gluten free biscuits, so I've added some references: Gluten Free Buttermilk Biscuits (similar to Phil's), Gluten Free Biscuits (made with almond milk, and a GF flour mix linked from another page), and Gluten Free Biscuits (billed as a tolerant, easy recipe). See also "5 Secrets to Fluffy, Sky-high Gluten Free Biscuits."
A marble rolling pin requires a little extra care, but is a handy kitchen tool especially in combination with a marble board. Using marble tools helps to keep dough cold.
You can make your own biscuit cutter from a can, including simple shapes like a flower. Aluminum from soda cans or baking tins is easier to work than steel cans, but not as sturdy. This video about making dough cutters has the first USEFUL pop-up I have ever seen in my life: it gives you a link to the recipe for the cookies. I wish more people would do THIS instead of waving aggravating crap in my face.
Americana is the collection of cultural material that invokes the spirit of the United States. You can see why Steve Rogers and apple pie would rouse strong feelings of nostalgia.
Negative feedback can discourage people from learning new skills, especially in areas outside their expertise. Pepper's canonical habit of yowling at Tony for doing things wrong, instead of showing him how to do better, is not very helpful. Overcoming discouragement is an important life skill. Learn to deal with unsupportive people and to work past discouragement.
Tony often holds himself back because he feels that he doesn't deserve good things. Life has taught him to do for himself, since other people more often try to take advantage of him than help him. There are tips for feeling good enough.
Effective leadership skills entail making people want to follow you by understanding their needs and accepting their admiration. Teaching is a crucial leadership ability so that you can help people fulfill their potential. Steve has always looked up to Bucky and credited him with providing a moral compass; now we're starting to see Bucky's leadership ability in action, where Captain America really came from.
[To be continued in Part 54 ...]
(no subject)
Date: 2013-12-11 09:53 am (UTC)Mei mei
Thank you!
Date: 2013-12-11 10:01 am (UTC)I'm happy to hear that.
>> I love Phil making the biscuits <<
He wants to connect his past memories of home and family with his current situation, and also to share a favorite family recipe with the people he now loves. He's not the only one doing that, if you look at what kinds of things other folks are making.
>> and especially the line > Phil mixed the dough, enjoying the chance to spend time with his people.< I love it so much, how Phil thinks of them as HIS people. <<
Well, they are: both his team of assets through SHIELD, but also his family as the ones he lives with.
>> I LOVE how Bucky invited Tony to learn, <<
That's why people follow Bucky -- and Steve. Standing invitation to better yourself, and give you a hand up if you need it. For Tony, it's like water in the desert.
>> I adored Tony's smile and I got a few weird looks from my husband when I laughed out loud at Tony plonking himself into Bucky's lap. <<
Yay! Tony seems to be the most erratic with ageplay. Sometimes he gets stuck, other times he's slippy like this. But it's good that he can explore this.
>> I can't wait for more. <<
Next update on Friday.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-12-11 10:52 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-12-11 04:03 pm (UTC)Ooo, good point! Especially with day-to-day things like cooking, I can see people thinking that those weren't "important" skills for a rich genius to have anyway.
"Why bother? He's a genius; if he ever wants to cook, he'll figure it out. And if he doesn't, well, he's the heir to a fortune--he can afford a chef."
Meg
Yes...
Date: 2013-12-13 07:08 am (UTC)That's why Tony lacks so many everyday skills. Nobody taught him, and in some cases, he was actively discouraged or scolded for doing "menial" tasks.
Yes, he's a genius, so on average his ability to learn on his own is pretty high. In areas where he has little to build on, it's harder -- and nobody's good at everything. Some stuff, Tony hardly knows where to start. Then he feels bad, because he thinks he should know, despite the lack of appropriate education.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-13 03:55 pm (UTC)Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-13 07:44 pm (UTC)Which kind of implies Maria as a trophy wife, not a good sign of a healthy family dynamic to begin with.
>> Maria would likely have not learned certain things even if it would have been normative for her 'class' earlier. <<
Yes, that's true. If she did know things, she may have abandoned them as soon as she could, and wanted "better" for her son -- not realizing the damage it would do.
>> My mom delegated to Swanson and the other frozen food companies, because teaching cooking takes longer than cooking. (Grandma would have been a different woman if people could have taken a lady HS football/basketball coach. You know, the Latin/Math teacher.) <<
Yeah, gender expectations can leave deep hoofprints.
I learned a lot from my family. When I took a high school trip to Russia, I was the only person who didn't embarrass America by not knowing how to jerry-rig things if the optimum was unavailable.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-14 03:13 am (UTC)Or, that's all anyone else saw and Howard was too far in his cups to help her not join him in the bottle.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-14 03:16 am (UTC)That's true.
>>so my head canon is that she was whip smart and pretty but a poor judge of Howard. He probably wooed her with a sentence much like "Finally, someone speaking English!" and then promptly forgot she wasn't just a pretty little broodmare.<<
Plausible. I tend to give Maria more leeway than Howard, because his fuckups have more canonical grounding.
>> Or, that's all anyone else saw and Howard was too far in his cups to help her not join him in the bottle. <<
It may be that, as women often do, she was charmed by the bad-boy party animal and thought she could change him ... which almost never works.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-22 03:51 pm (UTC)The writers missed limning Pepper right. They fell back too much on the 'humor' "harpy" scolding nanny. Because of Pavlovian training, audience 'read' her to intent but it models all sorts of don't do this at home.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-22 08:07 pm (UTC)I agree. Phil, more than Pepper, has figured out the idea of influencing Tony more by inspiration than by pressure.
>> The writers missed limning Pepper right. <<
Yes, that was very disappointing.
>> They fell back too much on the 'humor' "harpy" scolding nanny. Because of Pavlovian training, audience 'read' her to intent but it models all sorts of don't do this at home. <<
And then they wonder why they end up with girlfriends and wives who do all the shit they don't want at home, because that's most of what anyone has ever seen. *headdesk*
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-23 12:00 am (UTC)They should write the women that field strip go-cart engines with their boyfriends. Go ahead and have a Bechel-pass that's just two women getting a dalek hoop skirt mocked out. Let someone solve something and let him say his mother sang him to sleep with the periodic table.
Women, getting their geek on since they, not machines, were 'calculators'.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-23 10:06 pm (UTC)Exactly! I think it's ironic that the fantasies shown are primarily visual sex appeal, devoid of anything that might actually make a relationship work.
>> They should write the women that field strip go-cart engines with their boyfriends. Go ahead and have a Bechel-pass that's just two women getting a dalek hoop skirt mocked out. Let someone solve something and let him say his mother sang him to sleep with the periodic table. <<
That would be so awesome.
One of my all-time favorite commercials was for power tools. The woman was unpacking things and saying, "I got you this because I knew you'd love it, and then I saw this and it was so cute ..." and by the time she's done there was this huge pile of equipment.
The guy's buddy looked at him and said, "Does she have a sister?"
>> Women, getting their geek on since they, not machines, were 'calculators'. <<
I love that bit of history.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-24 06:03 am (UTC)Aldrich 'learned' all the wrong lessons from Tony, completely missing the cluebus that much of the stuff Tony did wasn't because he earned it as a geek, but because rich men get away with plenty.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-24 06:07 am (UTC)Yes, that's true.
>> Hard to say if they don't know what a functional relationship looks like, so can't even postulate what inputs might lead to result, or if they just think all women have base training so they are plug and play relationship coordinators. <<
*laugh* I think you just nailed it. Those men expect women to be plug and play.
And there's Tony watching Pepper go ...
12:00
12:00
12:00
>> Aldrich 'learned' all the wrong lessons from Tony, completely missing the cluebus that much of the stuff Tony did wasn't because he earned it as a geek, but because rich men get away with plenty. <<
Agreed. Tony had too few people who could tell him 'no' and make it stick. That's a horrible handicap.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-24 06:34 am (UTC)And one (Stane) actively encouraging him in anything that could be used as a bit and bridle.
I think Tony gets confused when Pepper (who has seen him for years) expects him to do something other than what he does under given stimulus.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-24 06:49 am (UTC)And one (Stane) actively encouraging him in anything that could be used as a bit and bridle. <<
Painfully true. Stane's abuse was awful, and Tony is still trying to pull himself back together.
This is why Tony needs to misbehave with Phil sometimes, or pull against his grip. Tony needs to feel that Phil will stop him without hurting him. He wants to learn what healthy boundaries feel like.
>> I think Tony gets confused when Pepper (who has seen him for years) expects him to do something other than what he does under given stimulus. <<
That makes sense. Despite his reputation for chaos, Tony is actually quite predictable in a lot of ways. Shiny thing? Tony will reach for it. Pussy? Tony will reach for it. Meeting? Tony will try to avoid it.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-26 05:38 am (UTC)And yes, Tony does need to know that he can be bad and still be loved. His "this isn't the most embarrassing thing you've caught me at" does rather seem like he wants it known that Pepper has stayed through worse stuff 'don't leave me'. I think their relationship is pretty tangled up before they start dating, and from there...
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-26 05:52 am (UTC)Well, he does wild and crazy things. He's just predictable about a lot of them.
>> And yes, Tony does need to know that he can be bad and still be loved. <<
So very much. He's been neglected, abandoned, and betrayed so much that it's a wonder he can still trust anyone.
>> His "this isn't the most embarrassing thing you've caught me at" does rather seem like he wants it known that Pepper has stayed through worse stuff 'don't leave me'. <<
Yes, exactly. Subtext: "Pepper Pepper ack don't leave me I need you Pepper I broke my life again Pepper help!" Tony covers it well, but it's still there if you know what to listen for between the lines.
>> I think their relationship is pretty tangled up before they start dating, and from there... <<
Yes, it is. Pepper is always trying to clean up after Tony's various disasters; she's reactive rather than proactive when it comes to him. They have so many layers to their relationship, it's no wonder that adding sex made the whole house of cards threaten to collapse. Neither of them were willing to risk that, so they took it back off. But that hurt, and they still haven't gotten back to a really smooth flow yet.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-26 06:05 am (UTC)I think she' has (developed?) a skillset for the problems Tony makes of his life. She doesn't have the skills to troubleshoot Tony getting into those problems in the first place. And Tony getting into those problems does mean that she's needed, making her much less the flavor of the hour like his rotating bedmates.
Or this is bad boys, with safety protocols in place.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-26 07:15 am (UTC)Yes, exactly. Phil is thinking ahead and trying to prevent problems from happening in the future -- not just discouraging Tony from being "bad" but finding better ways to meet his needs so that Tony doesn't feel the urge to misbehave as much.
>> And Tony getting into those problems does mean that she's needed, making her much less the flavor of the hour like his rotating bedmates. <<
Yyyyyeah. That stripe of codependency is a lot less healthy than what Tony and JARVIS have going. It's still better than Tony with no safeguards whatsoever, but not very good for either of them. I suspect that Pepper came out of a family with problems, and was the overachiever who fixed everything. Such people often go looking for a similar relationship as adults.
>> Or this is bad boys, with safety protocols in place. <<
Also possibly true.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-26 08:25 am (UTC)Phil on the other hand is starting from a different spot and he's a handler. "My specialist has these skillsets, I need to deploy under these conditions, what do I need to bring to make it work?" And, in the case of the Avengers, he doesn't need to be fielding them frequently, but they don't get lead time and they don't have a second string-- it's a distant third place or fourth from Avengers to anyone else.
So, he can get ahead of the curve.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-26 09:34 am (UTC)That's true. I think it wears her out more than is good.
>> Now, she's aided in that by great job perks ala Google cocoon (her drycleaning can get picked up by the same person that takes Tony's, food delivery, etc) <<
Based on canon, Pepper clearly takes advantage of that and enjoys it. *ponder* But she doesn't use it in the spirit it's often meant, as apology: she'll take the goods but not forgive Tony as a result. Which kinda sucks and also explains why he's bad with apologies coming and going.
>> Phil on the other hand is starting from a different spot and he's a handler. "My specialist has these skillsets, I need to deploy under these conditions, what do I need to bring to make it work?" <<
Exactly. He thinks not just logically, but strategically.
>> And, in the case of the Avengers, he doesn't need to be fielding them frequently, but they don't get lead time and they don't have a second string-- it's a distant third place or fourth from Avengers to anyone else. <<
Yeah, it's a stressful gig. The other superhero teams they can tag off with are roughly on the same level. Big gap below that.
>> So, he can get ahead of the curve. <<
That makes everyone's life better.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-26 03:47 pm (UTC)If he'd thought to put her name on a brass plate for some subsection of the art collection, that she'd have known was an apology. Now, that's not to let her off the hook. Tony is bad at a lot of things and so is Pepper. But just as we do love him anyway, we should love Pepper, if not in the same way, since they aren't the same. Maybe she can read that 'so you have stuff that's too sensitive to spout on a couch bringing you down, this book won't give you just enough rope to burn you' guide to self-healing now that she's only running SI and not also Tony.
Winston:This is the Ginger Rogers' award of cat herding.
Right, but he can't field Fantastic Four or Xavier's team, he requests assistance. (I'm still an utter sucker for reused actor meta fun. aka, acting tricks brought to the written word, because Johnny and Steve would be serious whiplash chops.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-26 11:55 pm (UTC)That's a baseline perk and doesn't count for this purpose. I'm talking about Tony's habit of buying her designer dresses or things like that, or more typically, telling her to buy her own prezzies. (Tony doesn't know how to pick things out, unless he lucks into someone who likes what he does, such as Bruce with lab equipment.) There are several fleeting references to this in canon, and it doesn't seem like Tony's efforts to make up to Pepper in this regard are things she can actually parse as apologies. Some people do, others don't. I think it's like love languages. Tony doesn't know how to compensate for someone who doesn't speak his.
>> If he'd thought to put her name on a brass plate for some subsection of the art collection, that she'd have known was an apology. <<
Yes, that's true. If he'd known she cared that much about the art, he would've just left it to her. But he didn't realize that until too late, and now it's serious damage that can't be fixed easily.
>> Now, that's not to let her off the hook. Tony is bad at a lot of things and so is Pepper. <<
Hence the codependence.
>> But just as we do love him anyway, we should love Pepper, if not in the same way, since they aren't the same. <<
I do love Pepper. I sympathize with her, really, because I've been in the position of doing years of work to help someone compensate for something ... and then a new person swans in and teaches a different technique that works so much better, and it's just frustrating as hell. But it's usually not possible to work that trick without someone having laid the groundwork first.
>> Maybe she can read that 'so you have stuff that's too sensitive to spout on a couch bringing you down, this book won't give you just enough rope to burn you' guide to self-healing now that she's only running SI and not also Tony. <<
That's possible. I am keeping an eye out for how their relationship will change, and Pepper's response to the other Avengers supporting Tony in new ways. I suspect she may be jealous at first, but ultimately, she has Tony's best interests at heart.
>> Winston:This is the Ginger Rogers' award of cat herding. <<
Nailed it.
>> Right, but he can't field Fantastic Four or Xavier's team, he requests assistance. <<
That's true.
>> (I'm still an utter sucker for reused actor meta fun. aka, acting tricks brought to the written word, because Johnny and Steve would be serious whiplash chops. <<
*laugh* I think that Pepper and Sue Storm would love each other, and have a lot in common, because Tony and Johnny are so much alike.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-27 01:08 am (UTC)Pepper got Tony to and through IM. Just like Rhodey put in bolts Pepper used, Phil has someone to work on because Pepper.
Now, Tony probably could get through some sponsorships kudos and palms for Pepper, but much of the collection has been broken up to much smaller private holdings. He'd be better served creating a Virginia Potts scholarship.
Steve. He'll have to give her post it note characters. Like talking toast. You can't be jealous of a man that makes doodles of talking toast and does his best to bring the whole team home.
Winston: I may have had three to herd, but they compliment each other.
Now, Johnny Storm and Johnny Marcone...
And then there are the Reed and Tony parallels. There would be some cocktails.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2014-01-06 12:46 am (UTC)She does feel that way, yes. It hurts her feelings that Tony doesn't act that way.
>> Now, that's expecting a lot, it's ignoring that that is a skill. <<
Definitely. *ponder* But for Pepper it may be subconscious; she's such a social genius that it's easy to overlook how much harder those things are for other people.
>> Pepper needs a male geisha, who will pick perfect stationary and compose a lovely poem or other memento of some instant of beauty. <<
*laugh* So very true.
>> She also wants things carved in brass and steel. "I was here and I mattered." <<
I think that's where she was going with "Proof That Tony Stark Has a Heart."
Pepper got Tony to and through IM. Just like Rhodey put in bolts Pepper used, Phil has someone to work on because Pepper.
>> Now, Tony probably could get through some sponsorships kudos and palms for Pepper, but much of the collection has been broken up to much smaller private holdings. He'd be better served creating a Virginia Potts scholarship. <<
Tony's about to notice how badly he broke Pepper with that careless move, and that it's not easily fixed. But he really is a genius. He'll figure out a solution.
>> Steve. He'll have to give her post it note characters. Like talking toast. You can't be jealous of a man that makes doodles of talking toast and does his best to bring the whole team home. <<
*laugh*
>> Winston: I may have had three to herd, but they compliment each other. <<
That's true.
>> Now, Johnny Storm and Johnny Marcone...
And then there are the Reed and Tony parallels. There would be some cocktails. <<
I think that Johnny and Tony are rakehell friends. They like to joke and fuck and blow shit up. Reed and Tony are touch-and-go, sometimes friends, sometimes rivals with a sharper note. They don't have the easy camaraderie that Tony and Bruce share. I would enjoy catching them on camera together some time.
Re: Yes...
Date: 2014-01-06 02:37 pm (UTC)She is a social bamf, but I think it's also the gendering of those skillsets- emotions and the tokens regarding same are 'feminized' and thus undervalued and erased. "Men's work is sun to sun, but women's work is never done." So, in a way Tony is being blamed because Pepper has so reconfigured normal so that everyone is supposed to be good at being 'female'. Hmm, Iron Man, you might have a problem.
(I'm currently reading Supergods by Grant Morrison.)
Hmm. So Tony has been like the monuments that had 'restorers' that did the best they could but the iron cleats caused problems to the marble? So now Phil does have a Tony which wouldn't have been true, with a few more dings than if Rhodey and Pepper could have been even more wonderful?
Steve, he's a doofus and that's a good thing. ;)
Reed speaks the math that Tony keeps calling English. He also throws caution to the wind to the point Tony questions it. "When Tony Stark, Stark, asks about your safety protocols because you've lovingly explained EVERYTHING about your project, you and the greater area is SCREWED."
Peter Venkman:Reed Richards drives Egon nuts. Have you met Spengs?
Re: Yes...
Date: 2014-01-28 02:45 am (UTC)That's also true. Pepper can work both sides of the gender fence, using both masculine and feminine tools to pursue her agenda ...
>> So, in a way Tony is being blamed because Pepper has so reconfigured normal so that everyone is supposed to be good at being 'female'. Hmm, Iron Man, you might have a problem. <<
... and she holds Tony to a similar standard, not realizing that he lacks some of her advantages. It doesn't help that Tony is a bit bifocal on gender.
>> Hmm. So Tony has been like the monuments that had 'restorers' that did the best they could but the iron cleats caused problems to the marble? <<
Yes, exactly.
>> So now Phil does have a Tony which wouldn't have been true, with a few more dings than if Rhodey and Pepper could have been even more wonderful? <<
Nobody's perfect. Rhodey, Happy, and Pepper started out with a Tony who was much more fucked up than he was by the time Phil came along. Nobody is perfect. I am not sure that anyone could have handled early!Tony with zero added damage to him. But they kept Tony alive, gave him some hope and comfort, made it possible for him to recover a little bit. That was enough for Phil and the Avengers to build on later.
>> Steve, he's a doofus and that's a good thing. ;) <<
Agreed.
>> Reed speaks the math that Tony keeps calling English. He also throws caution to the wind to the point Tony questions it. "When Tony Stark, Stark, asks about your safety protocols because you've lovingly explained EVERYTHING about your project, you and the greater area is SCREWED." <<
So very true. I think of Reed and Tony as half friends, half rivals. Sometimes they get along great, other times they drive each other nuts.
Thank you!
Date: 2013-12-13 07:21 am (UTC)I'm happy to hear that.
>> I actually had a discussion with a friend just a little while back <<
Yay! That's always fun to hear.
>> about how I bet Tony would love someone taking the time to teach him things, because all his life people have pretty much just expected him to pick up stuff without help because he's a genius. <<
Exactly, and all the more so for things like cooking that his parents would have viewed with little respect.
>> And him switching down for it makes perfect sense, too. <<
It's easier, less stressful, and more fun that way. It's also a bit of wish-fulfillment that ageplay handles very nicely.
>> Glad Bucky took it in stride. <<
He's good at adapting to sudden changes in circumstances.
It's also helpful for their relationship that one of Tony's driving needs will dovetail so well with one of Bucky's strong suits: hunger for attention/knowledge matched to a knack for teaching.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-12-11 03:54 pm (UTC)Tony is always interested in being taught, isn't he? I remember Phil "teaching" him checkers early on. I'm guessing Howard's (and Maria's?) neglect plays into that--having someone take the time to help him figure things out rather than fumbling through on his own.
I'm not sure I agree with Bucky's assessment that pies are "really easy"--pie crust, my old nemesis! But yeah, hopefully this will be a low-stress way of getting the two of them back on stable ground.
Tony rubbing his fingertips makes me nervous, though.
Meg
Thank you!
Date: 2013-12-13 06:56 am (UTC)Sooth, although it's spring in this story.
>> My grandmother had homemade biscuit/cookie cutters like Steve's. Depression-era ingenuity at its finest. <<
So did mine. I have a lot of Depression techniques from that source. I have to be pretty well off before I'll throw away resealable plastic tubs instead of reusing them.
>> Tony is always interested in being taught, isn't he? <<
Yes, exactly. It's an easy way to hook his attention and make him like you. Tony is always interested in learning new things and hungry for attention. Put them together and you've got him.
>> I remember Phil "teaching" him checkers early on. I'm guessing Howard's (and Maria's?) neglect plays into that--having someone take the time to help him figure things out rather than fumbling through on his own. <<
Yes, Tony's parents neglected him abysmally, and nobody else was tasked with teaching him things, so it usually didn't get done. Edwin Jarvis showed him some stuff, but Tony is mostly self-taught. He's good at it -- good enough that the lack really doesn't show except in certain social areas. But the hunger runs deep.
>> I'm not sure I agree with Bucky's assessment that pies are "really easy"--pie crust, my old nemesis! <<
Pie is a fairly straightforward thing to make, as opposed to something fussy like quiche. However, as you observed, it's not necessarily the easiest choice. Bucky is speaking from his personal experience. Tony forms his own opinion as he goes along.
>> But yeah, hopefully this will be a low-stress way of getting the two of them back on stable ground. <<
It certainly helps.
>> Tony rubbing his fingertips makes me nervous, though. <<
He has a lot of memories about other people hurting him, or getting him hurt, or just him hurting himself. Having someone act to protect him is new and startling in comparison. It's something Pepper and Rhodey have done on occasion, but not much more prior to the Avengers. Tony has to stop and think about how he feels on that topic, so he's fidgeting in a way related to his memories. Ultimately he submits without an argument -- which is progress, after some of the fussing he's done earlier when people have tried to discourage him from doing risky things.
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2013-12-13 04:33 pm (UTC)Cake would have been hard because there the flour's traits are much more in play. And the heat source.
Re: Thank you!
Date: 2013-12-13 08:04 pm (UTC)Yes, that's true. People learn what's common around them, if they have the potential for it.
Among the things I grew up with were cooking, gardening, mechanics, computers, and words. In my best skill, words, I hit adult level at least by the time I was 6, and likely before that. Cooking I'm quite good at; gardening I can do some things. Anything to do with machines ... well, I can tighten a loose screw on a door or describe the wrong sound a car is making, but not much more.
>> Cake would have been hard because there the flour's traits are much more in play. And the heat source. <<
True. I bet that Bucky and Steve love the kitchen equipment in the tower because it's so well made that the performance is precise and consistent far beyond their previous experience.
I write them as knowing how to make good home cooking, from scratch, with memorized recipes because that was par for the course when/where they grew up. They are just starting to explore fancier ingredients and techniques now that they have an opportunity, like the ginger chips; and recipes, because JARVIS can find a recipe for almost anything. They probably had a cookbook before but that would be for looking up things they didn't make often enough to have memorized. Contrast that with Bruce, who is downright artistic in the kitchen and enthusiastic about trying new recipes, or Natasha who only knows a few super-simple things most of which are made with cold ingredients.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-12-12 04:20 am (UTC)Oh wow. That's a nice bit of Depression childhood.
Thank you!
Date: 2013-12-13 06:47 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2013-12-12 06:52 am (UTC)Yes...
Date: 2013-12-13 06:46 am (UTC)Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-13 06:48 am (UTC)Oh, of course. I hope you didn't think I was objecting! :-D…
Re: Yes...
Date: 2013-12-13 06:57 am (UTC)Also, the new chapter just posted.