The Wordsmith&#39;s Forge

The very narrow focus causes a problem, in my opinion, because it leaves out so much of the genre. You don't get to take an umbrella genre like "fantasy" and then redefine it into something much smaller.

That said, I would really like to see some Jewish high fantasy of the type described as missing in action.

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serpentine

I would like to see fantasy based on the folklore too myself to be honest. Granted, a lot of that is found outside the regular form of the religion, but to be honest, I suspect a lot of the same goes for fantasy in general. The Dryads and other pagan beings in Narnia are definitely not originally from Christianity, so the writer may be defining the possibilities too narrowly?

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>>The Dryads and other pagan beings in Narnia are definitely not originally from Christianity, so the writer may be<<

*chuckle* Well, the Inklings tended to be mystic-Christians with an appreciation for other people's cultures. It shows vividly in the writing if you know where to look for it.

>> defining the possibilities too narrowly? <<

That's the major flaw in the whole essay.

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raze

While not Jewish specifically, Song of the Crow by Layne Maheu is a wonderful Biblical Fiction/Fantasy of the Old Testament variety, about Noah's Ark. I've seen it mentioned on a few Judiasm-geared websites/forums, so it sprang to mind.

In my own writing, Vol 8 of Raze features a Jewish vampire as a marriage officiant; she is Israeli-born and deeply religious. She is featured later in the series as well, but her most prominent role is in marrying Gabe and Evelyn.

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Thanks for sharing.

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thnidu

Funny thing: Just last night I was talking with my grown son (or rather vice versa, as he's the expert here) about the sequence in Babylon 5 in which Ivanova's rabbi uncle Yuri comes out to the station to help her through mourning and sitting Shiva for her father. SON opines, and I think this may be a broader opinion, that this is the best portrayal of Judaism in all of tv sf.

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It's pretty cool.

I'm also reminded of Strange Kaddish with Harlan Ellison.

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thnidu

Where is that to be found?

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Strange Kaddish:
http://www.amazon.com/Strange-Kaddish-Tales-Wont-Bubbie/dp/1888669012

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thnidu

I just read the article and, being me, I noticed a small point that I thought was wrong. I checked, and it is.

"Fantasy literature is often based around conflict with a powerful evil force—Tolkien’s Morgoth and Sauron and Lewis’s Jadis and the White Witch are clear examples—..."

Jadis is the White Witch. Narnia.wikia.com: Jadis.

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I wish I did have examples.

I don't think Cohanim fits, not because it's not fantasy, and not because it's not about Jews, but because it's not Jewish. I think that, more than merely featuring Jewish characters, what the article seems to be asking for is a story whose themes come straight from the Jewish scriptures and cultural traditions, like Narnia is for Christianity. I think the article could have used more precise terms than it did.

By the way, how many prompts can people leave for the Fishbowl, by the way? I couldn't find the answer in the description. Additionally, does my early reservation count as someone new leaving a prompt?

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>>I don't think Cohanim fits, not because it's not fantasy, and not because it's not about Jews, but because it's not Jewish. I think that, more than merely featuring Jewish characters, what the article seems to be asking for is a story whose themes come straight from the Jewish scriptures and cultural traditions, like Narnia is for Christianity.<<

Okay, that's an interesting perspective. My inclination is to count aspects -- whether something is written by a person of that culture (I'm not), whether it features character of that culture (this poem does), whether it uses unique motifs of that culture (I'd say so-so because the Cohanim are important to Jewish culture, just not fantastical; my use of a golem elsewhere might qualify better), and so forth. Flexible scoring.

>> I think the article could have used more precise terms than it did. <<

That seems to be a prevailing opinion.

>>By the way, how many prompts can people leave for the Fishbowl, by the way? I couldn't find the answer in the description.<<

I have not set a limit. If you send me a bunch, I'll pick my favorite(s). It's nice if one or two people send a big list, because sometimes it takes a while for people to post prompts and then I have something to work with. But I am very fond of your first prompt.

Some people send single prompts. That's great if you're determined to have me write that one thing, although if you give me something at the fringes of my familiarity, it can be a real challenge. Most people send 3-5 prompts. A few will give me a dozen or so. It's rare to have more than that, although it happens.

>> Additionally, does my early reservation count as someone new leaving a prompt? <<

Yes, so that's a second freebie poem already set.

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I think that themes are more important than specific cultural constructs. For instance, I think that stories featuring the idea of devotion to a monotheistic savior God of love, but no crosses, are more Christian than stories featuring crosses without going into detail about the theology. I think a story about Cohanim performing their duties as Cohanim would be more Jewish than a story about the descendants of Cohanim growing bird wings in Africa, given that the story explored what it means to be a people, and to wander, instead.

If someone else new left a prompt, would that mean two extra freebies, or just one?

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>>I think that themes are more important than specific cultural constructs. For instance, I think that stories featuring the idea of devotion to a monotheistic savior God of love, but no crosses, are more Christian than stories featuring crosses without going into detail about the theology. I think a story about Cohanim performing their duties as Cohanim would be more Jewish than a story about the descendants of Cohanim growing bird wings in Africa, given that the story explored what it means to be a people, and to wander, instead.<<

Ahh ... that's a fascinating perspective. I'll have to keep it in mind.

It was a Jew who invented the stardrive in my main science fiction setting (by accident, they were aiming for artificial gravity). I think that kind of crystallizes the idea of wandering.

>>If someone else new left a prompt, would that mean two extra freebies, or just one?<<

Just one. However, I do tally how many new prompters and donors I get; higher numbers there is a good thing. More people playing raises the activity level and encourages more poetry sales. Everyone wins.

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You know, I think we must have extremely different backgrounds. You say a lot of things that I hadn't quite thought of, and you take a lot of things I did think of and explain them clearly when I couldn't, even though (or maybe because) you use poetry and I was trying to say them outright. You have all these useful tips that are completely new to me. And then I say something really basic, 101-level, and you think it's a fascinating insight. Clearly, we should keep talking to each other.

Just once, I'd like to see a story where... I'm not sure how to put it. Where this whole Powers Equal Spirit thing didn't exist. I notice that in a lot of speculative fiction stories, the speculative fiction element of a person is always all about who xe is inside. For instance, how the wings in your poems always show ancestry, and how it's always so important what ancestry they show, enough to challenge people's self-identification with their own culture. I'd just like an inventor of a stardrive who likes where xe lives and is really rooted there, or someone who sprouts wings that reveal the "wrong" ancestry and shrugs and goes on with life, because ancestry wasn't what xe considered important about xyr culture anyway.

On a tangent, I think Avatar: The Last Airbender is very good about this, especially because one of the tie-in comics explicitly addresses it. There's the earthbender who identifies as Fire Nation because that's her culture, and the way Iroh talks about using water-based philosophy of bending to create new firebending moves. This is even though the series has made the elemental powers explicitly tied to certain personality traits. (A:TLA did a lot of things very right.)

I love your business model, by the way.

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>>You know, I think we must have extremely different backgrounds.<<

I agree.

>> You say a lot of things that I hadn't quite thought of, and you take a lot of things I did think of and explain them clearly when I couldn't, even though (or maybe because) you use poetry and I was trying to say them outright. You have all these useful tips that are completely new to me.<<

Cool!

>> And then I say something really basic, 101-level, and you think it's a fascinating insight. <<

There are times when you say things that I never thought of before, or never encountered before. Everyone's path is different. And that's a good thing, because it means there is always more to discover.

>> Clearly, we should keep talking to each other. <<

Agreed.

>>Just once, I'd like to see a story where... I'm not sure how to put it. Where this whole Powers Equal Spirit thing didn't exist.<<

Keep thinking about it. I sort of get what you're talking about there, but it's on the fringes for me: not what I usually write, and not easy to hit. This makes it interesting. Keep waving it around in the fishbowls, I'm bound to hit it eventually.

>>I notice that in a lot of speculative fiction stories, the speculative fiction element of a person is always all about who xe is inside.<<

I do write a lot of identity-fic. The nature of the identity varies: it may be about sexuality, ethnicity, religion, or any bunch of other things. But I tend to target what a given person, or sometimes broadened to a culture or setting, considers to be the most important aspect of self.

>>For instance, how the wings in your poems always show ancestry, and how it's always so important what ancestry they show, enough to challenge people's self-identification with their own culture.<<

The wings don't always show ancestry; they do show a significant aspect of self. Other things they can show include religion, sexuality, and major skills like storytelling. That adds to the diversity but doesn't move away from identity-fic.

>>I'd just like an inventor of a stardrive who likes where xe lives and is really rooted there, or someone who sprouts wings that reveal the "wrong" ancestry and shrugs and goes on with life, because ancestry wasn't what xe considered important about xyr culture anyway.<<

It's possible, especially with heritage wings, which seem to be the most common. There probably are people who don't care what they've got.

I have, occasionally, written across tropes where something happens and people just do not care. I think I've done "lost prince tells heritage nation to sod off" several times, but not recently.

>>On a tangent, I think Avatar: The Last Airbender is very good about this, especially because one of the tie-in comics explicitly addresses it. <<

We've been watching that intermittently, among other series. Got a new box over Midwinter, in fact. The part I like is how the Avatar cycles through all the nations, so Aang still has affinity for all of them.

>>I love your business model, by the way.<<

Yay! I'm loving the development of An Army of One. You've gotten the hang of crowdfunding as an interactive process very quickly.

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On the topic of crowdfunding as an interactive process, I find it disappointing that more writers can't have this kind of discussion with fans, and that they can't be part of the conversations their works spur. I sometimes wish for a fan to do something outrageous again, like Marion Zimmer Bradley's "fan" did to her, and for the case to actually make it to court. If the writer didn't just back down in fear, but fought, xe would win, and if xe did win, there would no longer be a reason for authors to stay away from fanfiction based on their own works.

I had wondered whether that openness, if it happened, would stifle fic-- whether, perhaps, having the author (who knows xyr own intent) reading fic, and knowing it's xem, would make fans too self-conscious. It turns out that it doesn't.

I also like the way that you know you're part of a conversation, carried out partly through your works and partly through discussions. I prefer that to the hero-worship of a single all-powerful creator that you see in some traditional fandoms, and the excessive shows of humility from fans who deny having any skill at all in the face of The Wonderful Author Of This Fandom, Who Is A Perfect Writer And Possibly The Best Writer Ever, Squee, I Am Not Worthy.

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>>On the topic of crowdfunding as an interactive process, I find it disappointing that more writers can't have this kind of discussion with fans, and that they can't be part of the conversations their works spur.<<

So do I. Not everyone wants that kind of contact, though. It's good to have different options.

>>I sometimes wish for a fan to do something outrageous again, like Marion Zimmer Bradley's "fan" did to her, and for the case to actually make it to court. If the writer didn't just back down in fear, but fought, xe would win, and if xe did win, there would no longer be a reason for authors to stay away from fanfiction based on their own works.<<

It's a pretty stupid case because there is no way to prove that someone took an idea from someone else. It is the specific arrangement of words that can be copyrighted, not things like plot. Characters can be copyrighted; names, roles, traits, etc. cannot.

In crowdfunding, as in shared worlds, the usual solution is to operate on a basis of collaboration. This can have various iterations.

Sometimes a work is open-source and nobody has ultimate authority, just authority over their own creations. This is how Schrodinger's Heroes works. Someone else can use the material, although they can't pretend that mind is theirs nor can they dictate what's canon for my characters. They can make their own version of the team, and indeed, someone is doing that.

Sometimes a work is very collective, like Torn World, which has a canon board for approval and Ellen Million as creator has the final say.

kajones_writing invites people to make characters, places, and even whole settings for her to play with. I made Quiar and wound up writing there myself.

Sometimes the focus is narrower, with one person doing most or all of the work, but others feeding ideas into the mix. Many prompt calls work like this.

Some authors, like some crowdfunders, have allowed fanfic with the rule: "I made this setting and these characters, so I have nonexclusive rights to everything created with them. If you want to play in my sandbox, you have to share anything you do here, so that you don't mess up the cool thing I'm doing that attracted you in the first place." So far this seems to work. I have yet to see one of those fandoms have a major war over rights, although it's possible such a thing has happened and I just missed it. But really, I think that influences what kind of people are attracted there in the first place. Shared worlds do have fights, but careful rules really minimize the damage.

>>I had wondered whether that openness, if it happened, would stifle fic-- whether, perhaps, having the author (who knows xyr own intent) reading fic, and knowing it's xem, would make fans too self-conscious. It turns out that it doesn't.<<

This is another thing that affects who gets involved and how. Some people only write for their own pleasure or to develop their skills, and never show their work to anyone. But a lot of fans write for the love of feedback.

>> I also like the way that you know you're part of a conversation, carried out partly through your works and partly through discussions. <<

This is a big part of crowdfunding for me, both as a creator and as a fan/patron. I love the conversation. I love being able to ask questions and trade ideas and build on what other people are doing.

>>I prefer that to the hero-worship of a single all-powerful creator that you see in some traditional fandoms, and the excessive shows of humility from fans who deny having any skill at all in the face of The Wonderful Author Of This Fandom, Who Is A Perfect Writer And Possibly The Best Writer Ever, Squee, I Am Not Worthy.<<

Yeah, that's ... not really my style, in any direction.

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ravan

What irks me about the article is that he burns a lot of powder over narnia and its Christianity. Then he paints the rest of the genre with the same brush that he's soiled with Narnia!

Hogwarts has nothing overtly "Christian" about it, other than the fact that it is set in a predominantly Christian nation. IIRC, there are Israeli and Arab magic schools too.

Most of fantasy does not really have the Christianic "redemption" theme like Narnia does. The clash between good and evil, by whatever you call it, is present in the "Old Testament", and the subtleties found in some fantasy books is similar. Hell, that infernal Thomas Covenant the (unbelievable) Unbeliever is a good stand in for Job, except he wallows in his own self pity too much.

But he overly narrows the "fantasy" genre, then tars what he includes with the Narnia brush, and wonders why there's no "fantasy" like "Narnia" from Jewish sources.

Putz.

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I've noticed that my fantasy varies. Some of it has a big focus on religion and some doesn't. Path of the Paladins and One God's Story of Mid-Life Crisis both focus on it. And sure, I love the redemption idea, though I handle it more from a Pagan than a Christian perspective: someone else may give you a clue, but the hard work of saving yourself, that you have to do on your own.

But then other times, it just doesn't come up. The setting I'm developing now for a dragon apocalypse lacks the religious aspect so common in fantasy. Also the dragons seem more amoral than evil. It makes things interesting.

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Hogwarts is to British boarding schools and culture as Narnia is to Christianity. Fantasy can draw on many different cultural traditions for its themes, and not all of those themes are religious. (It can also draw on other kinds of themes entirely.) On the other hand, JKR has stated that the last book was meant to be an explicitly Christian allegory. (Or so I vaguely recall.)

Edited Date: 2013-01-08 08:30 am (UTC)

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smallship1.livejournal.com

He doesn't seem to mention Avram Davidson, one of my favourite writers and one in whose work there's always seemed to me (as a Gentile) to be a strong Jewish sensibility, if few overt references. I love the Eszterhazy stories and the Peregrine books particularly.

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ladymondegreen.livejournal.com

Nor Isaac Batshevis Singer. *sigh*

Clearly I need to finish the novel I've been writing for the last 15 years, which is, after all, Jewish high fantasy.

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Finish it! This is obviously a niche in which very few works are rattling around like peas in a bucket. That means very little competition from similar works, so if it's at least tolerably readable, it should attract an audience. If it's really good, it could attract a lot of attention, and well, whatever the first works in a genre are always become part of the classic canon simply by virtue of precedence. They tend to influence whatever comes after. You could bake up JHF tropes by the dozen.

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ladymondegreen.livejournal.com

I mean, in large part it's Wonder Tales with bible stories, with a modern protagonist and a few surprises. I'm hoping that the worldbuilding will be foreign enough that it will get some traction.

Assuming I manage to work the kinks out of the plot. :)

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lyonesse.livejournal.com

the golem is probably the old canon, right? my personal favorite is probably this, umm, i guess it's urban fantasy:

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2716235-the-dyke-and-the-dybbuk

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The golem is old canon, right. I wrote one into "The Other Truck."

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lyonesse.livejournal.com

(and of course, just as many presumably-xian authors write paganish fantasy, there's jewish author lev grossman and his narnia pastiche "the magicians", which iirc was a nyt bestseller.)

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With such history, a Jew should write fantasy?

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ROTFLMAO!

Okay, very well played.

But I still think Jewish high fantasy would be awesome. What would it mean to be Jewish in some other world where Jews weren't everyone else's doormat? Or where the history was retold, as is typical in fantasy, with each group transposed onto a fantasy race? (Nazi dragons O_O) What kind of a world would develop using Jewish principles and folklore? Forget dumb golems; maybe in J'arnia you have to beat one in a debate to get past it.

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Thank you.

IIRC, Alan Sherman said that "My Son, The Folksinger"
was what Jewish songwriters would write ~if~ they were writing songs for Jews,
and in The Jewish Americans, someone said that Superman was the quintessential Jew.
I'm not at all certain if either observation even begins to answer the question.

Now, if you are ready to fall down and worship the statue I made, whenever you hear the sound of the horn, pipe, zither, dulcimer, harp, double-flute, and all the other musical instruments, then all will be well; if not, you shall be instantly cast into the white-hot furnace; and who is the God who can deliver you out of my hands?” Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego answered King Nebuchadnezzar, “There is no need for us to defend ourselves before you in this matter. If our God, whom we serve, can save us from the white-hot furnace and from your hands, O king, may he save us! But even if he will not, you should know, O king, that we will not serve your god or worship the golden statue which you set up.”

Filled with a noble spirit that stirred her womanly reason with manly emotion, she exhorted each of them in the language of their ancestors with these words: “I do not know how you came to be in my womb; it was not I who gave you breath and life, nor was it I who arranged the elements you are made of. Therefore, since it is the Creator of the universe who shaped the beginning of humankind and brought about the origin of everything, he, in his mercy, will give you back both breath and life, because you now disregard yourselves for the sake of his law.”

Antiochus, suspecting insult in her words, thought he was being ridiculed. As the youngest brother was still alive, the king appealed to him, not with mere words, but with promises on oath, to make him rich and happy if he would abandon his ancestral customs: he would make him his Friend and entrust him with high office. When the youth paid no attention to him at all, the king appealed to the mother, urging her to advise her boy to save his life. After he had urged her for a long time, she agreed to persuade her son. She leaned over close to him and, in derision of the cruel tyrant, said in their native language: “Son, have pity on me, who carried you in my womb for nine months, nursed you for three years, brought you up, educated and supported you to your present age. I beg you, child, to look at the heavens and the earth and see all that is in them; then you will know that God did not make them out of existing things. In the same way humankind came into existence. Do not be afraid of this executioner, but be worthy of your brothers and accept death, so that in the time of mercy I may receive you again with your brothers.”

She had scarcely finished speaking when the youth said: “What is the delay? I will not obey the king’s command. I obey the command of the law given to our ancestors through Moses. But you, who have contrived every kind of evil for the Hebrews, will not escape the hands of God.

Or Judith

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thesilentpoet.livejournal.com

I wish there was a way to "like" this. Well played, well played indeed.

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Thank you.
:)

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thesilentpoet.livejournal.com

I KNEW there was a reason to saving the Jewish-inspired Peter Pan/Narnia mash-up I wrote back in college. It was finals week, that was my excuse.

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Update it per your current skill level, but yes, the basic concept sounds appealing.

I still use some of the settings I started in junior high and high school. My main science fiction setting and main fantasy setting both date back that far.

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thesilentpoet.livejournal.com

Well, yes. I was actually just telling a friend this is something I wanted to do, so we'll see how timing works, I suppose.

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paka.livejournal.com

It so happens Jewishness and fantasy are things I have opinions about. And I completely disagree with the author.

And what that opinion is, is that being Jewish is Not Fun. Being the Jewish kid - especially in the Bible Belt - is Not Fun the way being Queer is Not Fun or having bad acne and being bad at team sports is Not Fun. Where do kids go when reality isn't fun? Fantasy. Or science fiction. Or hell, mythology. You notice that Jack Kirby was all about Norse stuff. You notice that when Ralph Bakshi decided to make fantasy films, Jewishness wasn't really in there (but his fixation on roadtrips was!).

Nobody's Christian, nobody's Jewish. You don't even have to think about the problem any more than Elric has to worry about zits or Conan has to feel bad about Belit not being interested in him. Jewishness is the last thing you want in your fantasy. You want your heritage to interrupt your reading about as much as you want to get into another fistfight with another halfback.

And I can't imagine I'm the only one of the potential audience who feels that way.

I really hate the way he has to drag the Shoah into this. Yes it was horrible and made a huge impact, but Jewishness before the Shoah wasn't safe or fun either, and the whole thing makes me pissed off in ways which are a rant for another time. I think a clever author could tie Robert Bloch's weird monsters and strange people, or how wistful and fantastic Maurice Sendak is, to any number of "Jewish experiences."

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>>Jewishness is the last thing you want in your fantasy. You want your heritage to interrupt your reading about as much as you want to get into another fistfight with another halfback.<<

That's a fascinating perspective. I can see how it would make sense.

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paka.livejournal.com

And here's a counterexample.

You have JRRT. Pretty much the religious fantasy writer. The guy who got Lewis into Christianity. You may have read devout-Christian Lewis, LDS Card and Weis and Hickman, die-hard-atheist Lovecraft, or Asatru elder Diana Paxton, and any of the other combination of author and religious heritage out there but you have read Tolkien. And yet nearly none of middle earth is Christian fantasy. Maybe Gandalf returning to save all Middle Earth after his death - but "Gandalf" is a kenning for Odinr, who returned after dying, isn't it? If I had to guess what JRRT was, based only on his fiction, I'd guess Norse pagan.

So another response to "why aren't there Jews out there writing Jewish themed fantasy fiction?" could be "why didn't Tolkien write Christian fantasy?" Answer; it didn't interest him. JRRT was (mostly) happy going to mass every Sunday, but when it came time to populate his larger than life world, he went rampaging straight for the Eddas and the Kalevala to pull mythology.

And if the most devoutly Christian godfather of modern fantasy didn't go nuts making his stuff Christian, why should the few Jews who go fantasy author go nuts making their stuff Jewish?

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