ysabetwordsmith: Cartoon of me in Wordsmith persona (Default)
[personal profile] ysabetwordsmith
This poem is from the August 15, 2017 Poetry Fishbowl. It was inspired by prompts from [personal profile] janetmiles, [personal profile] mdlbear, and [personal profile] callibr8. It has been sponsored by [personal profile] janetmiles.

"What Makes a Hoard"

What makes a hoard
instead of a pile of clutter
is the extent to which
it is known and used:

the rich man hoards cars
in a basement that he never drives

the poor woman saves blankets
to share with friends in need.

What makes a home
instead of a heap of
stuff with a cover on it
is the extent to which
it is loved and lived:

the rich man has a dozen houses
but not a single home

the poor woman has no house
but has made a hidden home.

In the course of a life,
treasures are built up and
passed along, sometimes
more and other times less,
depending on need.

Toward the end
there comes a time
to declutter, to distribute
what has been gathered.

The empty nesters
move out of a big house
to a comfy cottage or
even an apartment.

Against the coming night,
they hoard only memories.

* * *


Hoarding is often used as a way to discriminate against poor people. The rich are rarely criticized for hoarding, even though their version of it does massively more damage on a much wider scale.

Decluttering is a way of simplifying your life, if your stuff is more trouble than it's worth to you. However, it's not a cure for everything. Read about how to declutter your home.

Downsizing to a smaller home is something that people do for various reasons, often when their household size shrinks and they retire. Here are some ideas on how to downsize your home.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-08-22 05:44 am (UTC)
ravan: by Ravan (Default)
From: [personal profile] ravan
There's a fine line between clutter and hoarding. Clutter is "I may use this again some day. This is valuable". Hoarding is "I need this. I want this, but I have no use for this." Plus there a BIG element of it affecting the ability to live their daily lives.

I'm a clutterer. My wife is too. My roommate is over into hoarding. My mother is a hoarder (stuff in bags from the market stored in a bathtub full of similar stuff). It's a fine line.

What I've noticed is that people who've had a period of economic insecurity and poverty where they nearly lost everything and/or lost a most/all of their things tend toward hoarding. It's like their stuff is a shield against being poor again.

Re: Thoughts

Date: 2017-08-23 02:37 am (UTC)
mama_kestrel: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mama_kestrel
And yet sometimes hoarding really is pathological. When a person cannot throw away 30 year old book club fliers because they might want to look up the title of a book some day, but the fliers are just tossed on the floor, it's a problem. When there are so many piles of loose paper and undefined stuff that it's between waist and shoulder high on me (5'7") and if you don't know where the furniture is you'd swear there wasn't any except a single recliner, it's a problem. That included a queen sized bed, a king sized bed, two overstuffed chairs, a sofa, a dining room table, several end tables - all fully buried. When the paths are so cluttered that a sure-footed person has difficulty navigating, let alone an elder with severe balance issues, it becomes a trap. There was a path to the back door, from the back door down the hall to the bathroom, into the kitchen (but the kitchen could not be used for cooking - stuff was piled on the stove as well as the counters), into the garage to the laundry area at the back (but not from the back of the garage to the front of the garage). The front door was blocked. At that point it's not condemnation based on poverty or deviation from some arbitrary standard, and it's not just clutter.

And yes, I am describing my mother's house, before I started cleaning it a year ago.

ETA: I'm sorry. Hoarding has become one of my "buttons".
Edited (apology) Date: 2017-08-23 02:39 am (UTC)

Re: Thoughts

Date: 2017-08-23 07:53 am (UTC)
ravan: by Ravan (Default)
From: [personal profile] ravan
The best "solution" I've seen is when a friend of mine had several of us over to help her organize her house and help her figure out what needed to be recycled. She had the final say, and most of it was sorting what she had so she could find it and assess it. She got rid of trash, organized her stuff, and was able to better move around her home. (She was disabled.)

But she ran the show, not someone else "helping" her by stealing her stuff. BTW, it's amazing how much more space you have if you organize stuff and put it neatly away.

Yes, hoarding/cluttering is a hot button for me, too, on a lot of levels.

Re: Thoughts

Date: 2017-08-23 01:26 pm (UTC)
ravan: by Ravan (Default)
From: [personal profile] ravan
>>>> BTW, it's amazing how much more space you have if you organize stuff and put it neatly away.<<

This is true if you are not using extradimensional space. I broke a closet once by reorganizing it. Also the time we cleaned out our glassware cabinet and discarded a lot of chipped stuff excess reusable plastic cups, we barely got the keepers back in. Not to mention one move that involved filling a moving van with the contents of the house except for my office, and then refilling the whole van just with the office stuff. Mostly books.<<

Ummm, I have to refold space when I reorganize. If someone else does it it just goes kablooi. Fortunately both my roomie and I do space folding and stabilization.

>>>> Yes, hoarding/cluttering is a hot button for me, too, on a lot of levels. <<

It is for a lot of folks. (I'm impressed that we've gotten this far without tearing each other's heads off.)<<


>>For me there's a gender aspect because so many people think that having a vagina creates an obligation to have a magazine-cover house. No, I'd rather have a life, and furniture I can actually use.<<

Oh, believe it! That's part of why I get so defensive about it - all the fucking gendered "should" messages that are fucking constant in our society. I hate being stuffed into a "female" box, to the point of reflexive rebellion. I have the housekeeping habits of the proverbial batchelor, and I'm ok with that. I keep things from being gross health hazards, and say "fuck it" to keeping up appearances.

Re: Thoughts

Date: 2017-08-23 07:44 am (UTC)
ravan: by Ravan (Default)
From: [personal profile] ravan
>>Usefulness is often a matter of perspective, and so is interference in life. If someone feels that they have too much stuff and it bothers them, then by all means they should declutter; and if they can't do it alone, they should have a right to get help. Generally, such help is available only to people with privilege, which means that a lot of who might want it can't get it.

But most of what I've seen on this topic is judgmental pointing at someone else because the speaker doesn't like how much stuff they have or what they do with it. I'm also concerned that the pattern closely follows disempowerment: women are criticized for hoarding more than men, old people more than young, poor more than rich, and so on. They're easy targets, people who often can't defend themselves or their property against attacks.<<

If it interferes with your ability to get out of your house in an emergency, or use basic facilities, it's a problem. But I know that forcibly taking someone's stuff actually makes the problem worse. I've seen it happen to others. That's why my (male) roomie tends toward hoarding. He's lost his stuff at least twice.

>>Which sounds a lot like "I'm a social drinker, he has an alcohol problem, she's a drunk." It's perspective. I suspect most people would define themselves as clutterers and others as hoarders, rather than the reverse. That's not to say there is no spectrum, but rather that most accounts I've seen of it seem to be skewed.<<

If you weren't trying to be neutral I'd tell you to fuck off. I actually use the "how much of the floor in their space can I see under the stuff and grime?" as a somewhat objective measurement. I've known people who had no visible floor, just goat trails of thinner layers of stuff on the floor.

>>Well it is. When you've gone without, you don't want that to happen again, so you take precautions. People who haven't gone without are likely to mock that, but where were they when you needed help? Not there. Will they help you set up something more secure? *looks at ruin of social safety net* Evidently not. Do they even know how those things are used or reused? Quite often not. So I don't blame people for taking their safety into their own hands. In that context, it's pretty obvious that taking away their property by force, which is advocated in many hoarding articles I've seen, will only make matters a great deal worse.<<

As a person who has come close to living on the street with nothing, I agree. This is why I have a tendency in that direction. My wife has the same reason, and my roomie more so. People who forcibly try to "declutter" others are likely to get violently removed from my house.

>>There are ways to address financial insecurity on a social or individual scale. We could fix the social safety net and institute a basic income, but America doesn't want to do that. It likes the threat of poverty. Well then, deal with people stashing stuff. On a personal scale, some people choose to declutter and/or downsize their homes. Some people find that very helpful; more power to them. But others find it makes them feel even worse. It's not a cure-all for personal problems.<<

A real safety net seems like a pipe dream these days.

As to decluttering and downsizing, the thought makes me angry: why should I have to lose things I've worked for to make someone else happy.

>>If one has a goodly amount of resources, there is quite a lot that can be done with logic to address security, not just being safe but feeling safe. Put food in glass cabinets so you can see it. Figure out how much you need to store to get through your region's typical disasters, keep that much, and cycle it regularly. Think about what odds and ends you use -- a hardware box, a craft box, a rag bag, etc. -- and make a place for those. Sell off stuff you probably won't use and keep some of the money to re-buy anything you might actually need later.<<

This is some of what we have done here. I had gotten into a really bad space after the stroke and some layoffs. Part of my problem is that I couldn't see (or find) what I had when I needed it, so I bought more. Also, the previous time I ended up close to the street, I also nearly starved. So I had stocked food, and more food. Fortunately, I was able to feed my household on that food, and bring the quantity into a more reasonable level.

I also started putting my sewing and craft supplies into clear plastic boxes. That way I don't end up buying the same fabric or item five times because I forgot I had it! (Memory issues will do that to you.) When you have a business doing it it becomes essential, too. Same goes for storing food on shelves instead of in cabinets, and labeling even clear plastic containers. Makes inventory and rotation easier.

>> Note that this only works if you consistently have more money than you need and won't soon have to raid that fund for survival needs. Regrettably I haven't seen much of this in hoarding circles either; it's more about reducing people's property by force and making them stop complaining about how insecure they feel, than actually resolving feelings of insecurity. That doesn't seem as constructive.<<

That's what I loathe about all the decluttering and "anti-clutter" or "anti-hoarding" websites I've seen. They don't address the fear, the trauma, etc around losing your stuff, eviction, homelessness, food insecurity, and poverty. They just re-inflict the abuse by shaming people into throwing out what they've gained back. It's also why I don't even think about trying to "make" my mom "downsize" and move into an "apartment" (like my sister tries to do.) It would probably send her into a depressive spiral that would kill her. I'll just clean it up when she's gone. I'd rather she had her independence and life.

BTW, I make good money now, but I live in a high cost area, pretty much paycheck to paycheck (if I wasn't trying to save for retirement I'd be better off.) I still stock a lot of food for economic disasters. During the "Great Recession" I was out of work for well over a year. My stored food fed my household AND others too. I have actually improved, since now my wife and I go through clothes and other stuff to see what we no longer use and donate it. I finally was able to throw away clothes with gaping holes in them about ten years ago. Yes, it felt like an accomplishment.

Clutter and/or hoarding is not an easy problem to solve. Some of it has a genetic component, some of it is trauma induced.

Re: Thoughts

Date: 2017-08-23 01:18 pm (UTC)
ravan: by Ravan (Default)
From: [personal profile] ravan
>> I can take a kind of mental snapshot of room, but I can't edit it easily. So moving the stuff that usually stays put is very bothersome to me. I find the trait worthwhile because it enables me to find things. Other people have other ways, and I use various ones too, but that's the one most likely to cause problems if someone else disrupts it.<<

I have some of the same problem. If an area gets rearranged by someone other than me, I have to take a deep breath and ask that person where they put stuff. It has been an act of mental will to cede control over the placement of stuff in the kitchen to my wife. If I move stuff, I tell her, since we both have some memory issues due to brain trauma.

>> To me, those boxes have a consistent order -- largely based on how often I use them and what they're related to -- and the labels need to be facing out so I can read them. If a box isn't in its place then I have to hunt for it. There are plenty of things that don't have a specific place, but the ones that do, it's important and it's set that way for a reason. But not everyone does that, and disagreements over it can drive people nuts.<<

Yeah, we argued for years until we realized that simple labels helped both of us, and putting things away like they were saved both of us aggravation. I can look in a seemingly messy cabinet and tell if one spice jar has been shifted - because it doesn't match my 3D snapshot.

>>And it's not just the physical property lost, but the time required to go through it and remove however much someone else thinks you shouldn't be allowed to have. I like having stuff; I use stuff. But I don't want my life to consist of worshiping stuff with a bucket of cleaning supplies. People ask me how I find time to write. I have time to write because I don't do a lot of stuff that women feel obligated to do. Clean enough that it doesn't bother me, and if it bothers me I'll clean it then, lets me spend time writing.<<

I hate housework. Plus I literally can no longer do anything that requires two hands or balance. When I can afford it I hire someone to do the heavy cleaning. If it gets to the point that I can't help but notice it, or it becomes a health hazard, I clean. Otherwise I'm like a batchelor who doesn't do housework unless his mother is coming.

>>Most fights are about who is in charge. That's a key reason why arguments over stuff can get so bitter: who gets to decide how space is to be used, what a person is permitted to own, how things are to be kept. How much of your life is yours, and how much depends on being pleasing to others. These are serious concerns in an age of decreasing privacy and increasing tendency to butt into other people's lives.<<

Yeah, this is my fear - that as I get older, some helpful idiot will decide they need to "manage" my stuff. Then I may end up needing a woodchipper.

>>Yep. I literally cannot begin to count how many times I have been prepared for something and grateful for it, because of my farmemory. I know to keep food, bedding, and other urgent supplies in case of emergency; we've used those, and we've shared them with friends. It makes me deeply happy, in a way that's difficult to describe, when I look at a cabinet full of food or a closet full of sheets and blankets.<<

Yes. It means to me that I can help myself AND my "tribe"

>>A lot of it comes down to knowing what you use. We have candles just everywhere, because when it storms, I go light some in the rooms we're currently using. The electricity goes off frequently in this rural area, so that's a necessary backup plan; so are the oil lamps, battery lamps, and flashlights all over the house.<<

Yep. over 30 years ago I decided that oil lamps were an essential supply. I have been proven right on numerous occasions. I one time finished an SCA costume on my treadle sewing machine by oil lamp because of a power outage.

>>I have made some notes on the topic of prosthetic memory for some of my memory-impaired characters. Bucky in Love Is For Children uses things like Goal-Fish to make trivial decisions and an electronic daybook to manage his schedule. Turq uses a scrapbook to organize trauma-damaged memories.<<

In the 22 years since my stroke, my memory has recovered somewhat. But I have literally done presentations on cognitive disaster recovery - backups and workarounds. One of these years I may have to write a book on it, from a pragmatic, BTDT viewpoint, not rehab theory. BTW, you would not believe how many decisions are made with dice around here...

>>>>Same goes for storing food on shelves instead of in cabinets, and labeling even clear plastic containers. Makes inventory and rotation easier.<<

I've had middling success with this. Sometimes we can keep it going for a while with the chest freezer, in terms of a content sheet on top. At least the vast majority of stuff goes in there with a label. It doesn't always stay on, which is maddening.<<

We use the dymo labelwriter roll type labels. When we need to change the label, we just label over it. The freezers are the hardest to keep track of because they are hard to see into. I literally have to go in a re-map periodically.

>>Exactly! And in my observation, that works just the same as ratcheting diet and weight gain. The body thinks it almost starves so it packs on extra.

If you know what's happening, you can work through it or help someone else through it. But that only works if they really are safe now. If not, their fear is valid even should the effects be aggravating. You can't solve that problem until you solve the underlying survival threats. In this society, that is often difficult or impossible. <<

As someone wearing about 50 pounds of diet rebound, this model makes sense. The problem is changing your definition of "safe" and "enough". Thirty years of safety only barely takes the edge off of it, IME.

>>I have found that a valuable relationship skill is allowing each person a few things to be irrational about, or at least extra-picky about.<<

Very true. Even now my wife and I are sub-rosa negotiating that boundary.

>>I have a scale. Good clothes that can be worn out in the world, lounge around house clothes, raggedy yardwork clothes, and below that they go in the ragbag. We use the ragbag for everything from cleaning up noxious messes to making torches. Clothes that are outgrown or otherwise unsuitable but still good will get donated whenever we have time to gather them up. The latest for me is that some damn new fiber in socks turns them into absolute trash magnets, and I haven't found a reliable way to tell which will do that before buying the blighted things. Those go in the donate bag after wearing once. >_<

That's mostly my sale, although we don't use the stuff in the rag bag enough. I have to break down and donate a bunch of my nice purple socks because I wear almost exclusively compression socks now (due to the hemiparesis). Around six pair of barely worn knee-high purple tube socks that I can't often wear are up for grabs, BTW.

>>>> Some of it has a genetic component, some of it is trauma induced. <<

I haven't seen a genetic reference. I have seen articles about epigenetic changes due to stress, which get passed down. I would suspect that influences salvage tendencies.<<

I forget where I saw the reference, although they may have been attributing to genetics the epigenetic effects. I know that my tendency in the area is due to my mother, then with my own poverty experiences added on top.

Re: Thoughts

Date: 2017-08-24 05:49 am (UTC)
ravan: by Ravan (Default)
From: [personal profile] ravan
>>I think things would go a lot better if society offered more ways to get things done that don't cost money. Because the people most in need of cleaning services (seniors, disabled folks, parents with expensive new babies, etc.) can't afford them, and the rich people who use such services regularly tend to be able-bodied.<<

That is the irony.

>>But amongst all the stuff-shaming, I never hear anyone say, "How would you feel about some help with housework? We could have someone come over and give you a hand." I think it could work because it could be introduced gradually for anyone who feels iffy about it, while it would make big fast gains for anyone who's enduring a mess because they can't clean easily.<<

I'm actually very careful with who I allow to clean at my house for a couple reasons:
1) I'm very allergic to fragrance, especially in cleaning products
2) Well meaning do-gooders may try to forcibly declutter, or make very wrong decisions about what to discard based on middle-class TV values (keep the TV and magazines, discard my signed books, keep the skirts mouldering in my closet, discard my knock
-around pants, etc.)
3) Gossip. I'm actually a very private person.

>>>> Yeah, this is my fear - that as I get older, some helpful idiot will decide they need to "manage" my stuff. Then I may end up needing a woodchipper.<<

Exactly. Old people are routinely robbed because their needs are inconvenient, nobody wants them anymore, and they lack the power to fight back effectively. In America, you don't have rights; you have paid privileges, and even then, only the ones you can defend with force.<<

Unfortunately very true. When my grandmother got up there in years, the people she had in to help her with cleaning stole a lot of stuff from her, including stuff that was designated to come to my sister and I.

>>>> In the 22 years since my stroke, my memory has recovered somewhat. But I have literally done presentations on cognitive disaster recovery - backups and workarounds. One of these years I may have to write a book on it, from a pragmatic, BTDT viewpoint, not rehab theory. <<

Please please please! We need all the horse's mouth resources we can get. I am appalled at how unreliable the clinical references are, and there's almost nothing else. Often I find alternatives only when someone with Trait X points me to the hidden lore.<<

It would also have one handed living tricks as well. I have some outlines, but it may end up being an online resource first.

>>This is where therapy and/or self-help can make a big difference. If you just leave it alone, it gets better slowly if at all. But if you work on it actively, then it can go much faster. You have to think about how you feel bad, and why, and what makes you better. Then look for ways to expand that. Identify what's a nuisance and how to reduce that.

Say someone hoards food to feel safe, because they've been poor and hungry, but they're not doing a great job of it so they get vermin. Standard practice is to pressure or force them to give up that food. This makes them anxious as fuck.<<

This is some of what I have to do after my brush with starving. Regularly seeing and inventorying my stocks helps me manage it.

>>The imprint I got from my grandparents is quite functional and valuable. Scarcity damage from my own experience makes things harder to handle. Books are the hardest because I have some religious imperatives there, like I can't destroy a book. Sell it, give it away, use it as a doorstop, yes; but not destroy it, even if it's bad. Even getting rid of books that I personally will never read is hard, because I think like a librarian. Eventually I wrangled myself around to keeping samples of a wide range of topics, and keeping some money to re-buy books if necessary. That's the kind of logical and practical problem-solving that makes real progress, but I rarely see it mentioned. I did find one link this time that cited the trick of using a re-buy fund, though.<<

All three of us are hardcore bookworms, and my wife and my roomie have both lost libraries over the years. We've mostly merged our collections, but they've been boxed for years due to lack of shelving. This gets frustrating when we want to re-read something. We are thinking of getting a little library and stocking it with our overflow items and/or duplicates. We've slowed the accretion by buying electronic copies of a lot of things. We'll go buy the hardbound if it ends up being timeless.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-08-22 10:33 am (UTC)
siliconshaman: black cat against the moon (Default)
From: [personal profile] siliconshaman
I like that definition... I've been accused of hording computer parts [and whole computers]... but I give them away to people who need one and can't afford it and time&again the pile'o'parts has had just the right bit to make a dead system live again.

But it does all rather get in the way... I need to organise better.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-08-22 02:52 pm (UTC)
callibr8: icon courtesy of Wyld_Dandelyon (Default)
From: [personal profile] callibr8
> I need to organise better.

I know that feel, bro!

Re: Thoughts

Date: 2017-08-23 08:11 am (UTC)
ravan: by Ravan (Default)
From: [personal profile] ravan
>>Another time some friends were having a real hard time, so we filled a bag from our freezer and a bag from our cabinet and took them some food.<<

I've literally done this.

>>For the most part, I say: "I'm a good packrat. I know where everything is, plus or minus 10%." If we need something, I can almost always find a way to get the job done, even if it's not exactly what we'd have bought if we went to the store, and it doesn't cost an hour and $$. Sometimes the fairies snitch things, and other times they add stuff that we never brought into the house. But that's my life, you know? It's never boring.<<

This sounds like my household. Not sure whether they're fairies or gremlins, only that they like to hide stuff, move stuff, and sometimes disappear stuff. They pick on my wife more than on me - I just tell them to "Give it back" if it's something I need right then.

>> I think a lot of the criticism about hoarding comes from people who save stuff on instinct without knowing how to use it fluently, or people who look at someone else's supplies and don't realize how it's being used. So then all that gets rolled into the same category with, to give a creepy example, people who keep dead cats in the freezer.<<

True. I used to save holy socks because I figured I would fix them. Then I figured out that it wasn't worth my time to try to darn cheap socks - I did the math. Same with other kinds of mending. It wasn't worth it to mend inexpensive clothes, because it cost more in space to store them and time to eventually fix them than to replace them.

>> I think, if you're concerned about hoarding, don't look up hoarding. Look up decluttering instead. It's much more helpful.<<

Yes, but even many of the decluttering sites "stuff shame" you, and try to make you throw away anything you haven't used in a very short time period (like 6 months). That is so short-sighted that it drives me into a rage. Then again, I have tools that are older than most of these people. Maybe good organizing sites would be better.

Re: Thoughts

Date: 2017-08-23 04:32 pm (UTC)
fyreharper: (Default)
From: [personal profile] fyreharper
Well, we never had dead cats plural in the freezer....... I think my parents' freezer is finally pet-free at this point, but one of these years we should do something about the gerbil in mine. (It was my roommate's, and burial was put on hold until her folks finished redoing the backyard, Which Has Not Happened...)

These are important things to have well-labeled though! We've heard stories about my dad being Not Happy about opening a bag in the fridge and finding the rat that was intended for the lab's snake :p

(no subject)

Date: 2017-08-22 10:36 am (UTC)
siliconshaman: black cat against the moon (Default)
From: [personal profile] siliconshaman
Aye, rich people hoard money. [sometimes literally, the Koch brothers have something like $8million in cash in that big old house of theirs, just stuffed into cardboard boxes and lying around.]

Re: Yes...

Date: 2017-08-22 07:49 pm (UTC)
siliconshaman: black cat against the moon (Default)
From: [personal profile] siliconshaman
In the case of the Koch brothers, it's rumoured it's because all that cash isn't entirely legit... [like the pacific ocean is a bit wet] and the fact the IRS is basically camping their finances might have something to do with it.

But yeah, there's a growing trend for the mega-rich to move their money out of the banks, because they know all too well how the banks work...

Re: Yes...

Date: 2017-08-28 03:15 pm (UTC)
mama_kestrel: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mama_kestrel
There is another possibility where the Koch brothers and their ilk are concerned. Eight million or so, for them, isn't much at all. What it is, is enough to get the hell out of Dodge. It is enough to pay the household guard small private army, fly the planes, grease the right palms and run when officially deposited funds were frozen or the mob was at the compound gates, or both.

Re: Yes...

Date: 2017-08-28 03:21 pm (UTC)
siliconshaman: black cat against the moon (Default)
From: [personal profile] siliconshaman
Huh, yeah.. that's quite likely true. It would explain why, if the rumours are true, a significant portion of it isn't actually cash, but stuff like diamonds, gold and so on... untraceable funds that aren't government backed and are easily tradable.

Of course.. it's just rumours, hearsay and so on... but they'd be stupid or overly arrogant if they didn't have contingency plans in case they had to do a moonlight runner. Just in case. And an untouchable emergency fund close at hand I suppose would be sensible part of that.
Edited Date: 2017-08-28 03:22 pm (UTC)

Re: Yes...

Date: 2017-08-28 06:39 pm (UTC)
siliconshaman: black cat against the moon (Default)
From: [personal profile] siliconshaman
I very much doubt it too... tunnel vision you know.

Re: Yes...

Date: 2017-08-23 08:14 am (UTC)
ravan: by Ravan (Default)
From: [personal profile] ravan
Yeah, I've noticed that too. Also people keeping barterable supplies. Some of it came out of the Y2K silliness and the "prepper" movement, but it's kinda mainstream now. Mind you, the nuclear sabre rattling with North Korea doesn't help.

Re: Yes...

Date: 2017-08-23 12:27 pm (UTC)
ravan: by Ravan (Default)
From: [personal profile] ravan
>>Tampons. Everyone forgets those, but they're precious. Cigarettes will get you a meal; tampons will get you laid.<<

Yeah, I'm very glad I don't use corks any more, because they're hard to afford when you're broke. I should keep some on hand for guests though.

>>It frustrates the hell out of me that nutjobs have given preparation a bad name. Okay, their chosen scenarios are typically low probability. But disasters happen all the time. We lose power here at least once a season. It's not rare to get snowed in once in the winter, and that used to happen frequently when I was little, before global warming moved us half a zone. Floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, wildfires, and let's not forget manmade mayhem such as trucker strikes and layoffs. It is utterly sensible to have a supply of essentials to tide you over in case of emergency, lest you be among the sad sacks fighting over the last pack of toilet paper before a totally foreseeable storm.<<

I agree. By most estimations I'm a "prepper", but I've endured several man-made disasters, plus I live in earthquake country. In my state the have public awareness campaigns encourging people to have at least three to seven days supplies. I never can credibly say "There's nothing in this house to eat." My mother could when I was a child.

>>I thought Y2K would be worse than it was. I still think it was a credible threat. It's probably my highwater mark for "Wow, I'm glad I was wrong about that one."<<


Re: Yes...

Date: 2017-08-28 03:59 pm (UTC)
mama_kestrel: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mama_kestrel
let's not forget manmade mayhem such as trucker strikes and layoffs.

Or the current one, wherein California crops are rotting in the fields because of the immigration crackdown. Shades of the old Soviet Union....

I remember one epic blizzard forecast my husband went to the store for the usual supplies. He had no trouble getting toilet paper or bottled water, but there wasn't a loaf of bread on the shelf. The store manager was apologizing profusely for that, when my beloved simply pointed to the 10 pounds of flour in the cart and said calmly "No problem. My wife has that in hand." We were, in fact, snowed in for 5 days with that one...with house-guests. I came very close to strangling my late sister-in-law's mother, but that's another story. (Summary: Two alpha bitches trapped in a space when one claims primacy by right of age and the other by right of territory, with a side order of "and don't you dare drag the cubs into this in my house". Twenty years or so on, it's pretty funny.)
Edited (typo) Date: 2017-08-28 04:02 pm (UTC)

Re: Thoughts

Date: 2017-08-23 04:06 pm (UTC)
fyreharper: (Default)
From: [personal profile] fyreharper
He took out all your bookmarks?? :aghast:
And he's still alive?

Re: Thoughts

Date: 2017-08-23 04:39 pm (UTC)
fyreharper: (Default)
From: [personal profile] fyreharper
Huh, this appears to have come unmoored from the thread it was in response to.


ysabetwordsmith: Cartoon of me in Wordsmith persona (Default)

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