ysabetwordsmith: Cartoon of me in Wordsmith persona (Default)
[personal profile] ysabetwordsmith
Yes, this can work.  However, like all other forms of brain or mind alteration, it has some irreducible risks.  One of those is that it's always going to hit some unintended targets, because memory is more holographic than discrete.  The other is that it's going to take a fast five minutes for any mindwipe drug to hit the streets,and then you have two very bad problems: 1) people blowing their brains out with it while trying to self-medicate, and 2) people using it to erase someone else's memories.  0_o

This doesn't mean don't create an extremely precious treatment for PTSD.  Just know what you're getting into.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-06-30 11:55 am (UTC)
cmcmck: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cmcmck
I take the view that my memories are my memories, even the ones I find incredibly hard to deal with.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-06-30 01:57 pm (UTC)
technoshaman: Tux (Default)
From: [personal profile] technoshaman
*gives this one the side-eye* In the current political environment, the potential for abuse by all manner of bad actors is through the freaking ionosphere.

Am voting for treating people who need treatment the way the Iron Riders and their people do. Not only dies it have less potential to go wrong, but it tends to form support communities, which helps even more.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-06-30 03:10 pm (UTC)
zesty_pinto: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zesty_pinto
I agree with your assessments. Granted, we were already given a concept sketch of some of the fallacies this can come with as well if it was marketed as more of a commercial option than a prescriptive one, a la "Eternal Sunshine of The Spotless Mind." While fantasy itself, it does beg the question if certain tragedies happen without any third party control, would it not repeat the tragedy along the way?

I wonder if certain trauma could be "lessened" as a result. I know I could use something to help me reduce my occasional panic attack.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-06-30 03:40 pm (UTC)
redsixwing: Red-winged angel staring at a distant star. (Default)
From: [personal profile] redsixwing
Eeeek. No Thank You. There are lower-risk things available.

I'm sure this will be a lifesaver for someone, but it hits a big ol' squick for me.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-06-30 04:13 pm (UTC)
gingicat: drawing of me based on wedding photo (Default)
From: [personal profile] gingicat
My friend Vicka R. Corey PhD worked on research in oxytocin and PTSD. I cannot find her study, but this is similar:
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1745691615600138

Edit: her research is wide-ranging! http://www.brainexplained.com/cv.html
Edited Date: 2017-06-30 04:18 pm (UTC)

Re: Wow!

Date: 2017-07-01 12:09 am (UTC)
gingicat: drawing of me based on wedding photo (Default)
From: [personal profile] gingicat
You would really like her, I think. And she's on your level for intelligence.

Re: Wow!

Date: 2017-07-01 09:54 am (UTC)
gingicat: drawing of me based on wedding photo (Default)
From: [personal profile] gingicat
And I know you well enough to know that this isn't arrogance.

In my profession of being a very GOOD admin (currently office manager) I do a lot of what my fannish and techie friends call "speaker to mundanes." I can follow along other people's enthusiasm even if I don't care about the topic. (I'm so glad I developed this skill before living with beloved ones who perseverate...) I also assume competence in EVERYONE. Maybe not competence in the easy-to-me thing I'm helping with, but a brilliant speech-language pathologist or occupational therapist can have a terrible time accessing simple features in their computer. (I love assisting people who know the term "gross motor planning" because it helps them organize their own learning of a new skill.)

(no subject)

Date: 2017-06-30 11:41 pm (UTC)
lb_lee: A happy little brain with a bandage on it, surrounded by a circle and the words LB Lee. (Default)
From: [personal profile] lb_lee
Heh, it's funny, since our brain does that pretty much all on its own, with mixed results. (And while I can't know for sure, I suspect my mother might have some of that going on too.) I admit to being dubious... but that's because my family kinda dealt with trauma by just repeating it generation after generation and then nuking all memory of it, thereby ensuring nobody would ever learn.

(I mean, I don't know that they ACTUALLY literally forgot, but when you refuse to acknowledge it ever happened or discuss it, and keep mindlessly repeating the same endangerment scenarios, on a practical level it makes very little difference.)

(I will also note that our amnesia did not really end or even dampen our flashbacks. It just made them devoid of content, and thus very difficult to stop.)

--Rogan

(no subject)

Date: 2017-07-01 01:07 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] chalcedony_px4

(I will also note that our amnesia did not really end or even dampen our flashbacks. It just made them devoid of content, and thus very difficult to stop.)

(−) Without meaning any claim over what you're describing, that sounds like the difference between suppressed and neutralized/quashed memories (we don't really have a good term for the latter; there's probably a better one we don't know). Do you have any differential experience between those?

(OT: yay, I think this abbr style might be a good way to represent the distinctions between us in an HTML context)

(no subject)

Date: 2017-07-01 01:14 am (UTC)
lb_lee: A happy little brain with a bandage on it, surrounded by a circle and the words LB Lee. (Default)
From: [personal profile] lb_lee
Ah, that's a good distinction I hadn't thought to make! Yeah, I got nothing there, truth be told!

Re: Thoughts

Date: 2017-07-01 01:28 am (UTC)
lb_lee: A happy little brain with a bandage on it, surrounded by a circle and the words LB Lee. (Default)
From: [personal profile] lb_lee
Yeah, it's an interesting thought, though!

I've also heard that there are medications, opioids I think, that seem to have really good effect on flashbacks that are in the works! But I wouldn't take my word for it, it was just something I heard from someone who was trying one of them and said it did wonders.

--Rogan

Re: Thoughts

Date: 2017-07-01 09:57 am (UTC)
gingicat: drawing of me based on wedding photo (Default)
From: [personal profile] gingicat
Opiates are the *only* option for some. Hurry up, science, make a non-opioid painkiller that actually works for them!

(no subject)

Date: 2017-07-01 01:25 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] chalcedony_px4

(−) From what little we know of this sort of thing from other sources, it seems like actually activating any of the risks by accident could be pretty tricky—but it depends on how strong the effect is, and how deep the required precursor states are, so perhaps we shouldn't say anything until something comes out more concretely. (It's also often hard to tell how other people experience this sort of thing (I'll let Illum write that one up in a bit if she wants).)

The specific idea of a “mindwipe” drug seems more implausible if one interprets it as having a very broadly-scoped effect (which is how that term reads to me); if what's meant is something narrower, then it's less likely that they'd blow away anything they couldn't reconstruct another way.

Targeted abuse could be extremely bad; it depends on how much of an effect the victim would notice while it's happening, how easily they can be tricked into the necessary access states, and whether they can be trained to avoid those states if they suspect something; most people we've said anything to say they have no known mechanism for the pink-elephant problem (we have one which may or may not work in a situation like this, but our defenses are separate from that). Whether this would be worse than existing methods of torture is unclear; untrained attackers may have trouble getting good selectivity and depth.

Re: Well...

Date: 2017-07-01 02:02 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] chalcedony_px4

*sigh* There already are broad-spectrum mindwiping drugs. Most of them aren't meant to do that, but it's a known risk especially for older patients with some hospital treatments. They go in with a whole mind and come out a demented husk. Among the more notorious classes of drugs that do this are chemical restraints and certain surgical anaesthetics.

(−) Oh, right. Those. Sorry, that was a blind spot; I got too caught up thinking about extensions of the precise version. *facepaw*

The rest mostly matches up with our extrapolations from experience with our system-native memory-etching mechanisms, though we manage the fragmentation problem so instinctively that it barely ever comes up at all in that context. (Illum was just going to write about the rest of that, but then got cold feet about it. I think she should have posted it, honestly, but I don't have enough channels left to pull out the details and write them again right now, feh.)

(It is still really hard for us to imagine how people without memory-etching as a native part of their reality perceive this stuff; there's something about the way their state-space range or lack thereof works that just… buh??)

Re: Well...

Date: 2017-07-01 09:00 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] chalcedony_px4

(+) I think Teneb's embarrassed us enough already. *glares at her counterpart* (I can't even tell whether the “fascinating” is sarcastic or not…)

As far as more generalized experiences with memory erasure, Akari (our predecessor) ran into (body-endogenous-)chemical-related memory corruption. Once she ran out of available interregional time-skew, she wound up frantically torching whole regions trying to stop it from getting any further, and now most of the episodic memory from that era is undecodable. As far as we can tell she would have been able to predict that that would happen, but it was a survival thing (though it's not clear whether it ultimately helped). So, there's that.

I'm kind of curious about the not-“only of [a] current life” now… most instances we hear of of that sound like the opposite of our “multiple generations, same form”, and it makes me wonder what it's like.

Re: Well...

Date: 2017-07-11 02:49 am (UTC)
zeeth_kyrah: A glowing white and blue anthropomorphic horse stands before a pink and blue sky. (Default)
From: [personal profile] zeeth_kyrah
Don't trade it. Not for all the water in the Kuiper zone!

Re: Well...

Date: 2017-07-11 02:46 am (UTC)
zeeth_kyrah: A glowing white and blue anthropomorphic horse stands before a pink and blue sky. (Default)
From: [personal profile] zeeth_kyrah
I should have worked on my memory storage. Except for the whole-mind destructive read that was done. That did more damage to everyone else than it actually did to me, aside from me having to hunt down the pieces and fight for them back.

OT mostly

Date: 2017-07-01 01:25 am (UTC)
thnidu: my familiar. "Beanie Baby" -type dragon, red with white wings (Default)
From: [personal profile] thnidu
That page had teaser-links to a number of other stories, including
The mere presence of your smartphone reduces brain power, study shows
and
Cocoa and chocolate are not just treats -- they are good for your cognition

Mmm... Think I'm gonna have some o' that yummy Abuelita* hot chocolate I bought last week!



* literally "Granny"
Edited Date: 2017-07-01 01:36 am (UTC)

Re: OT mostly

Date: 2017-07-01 04:26 am (UTC)
thnidu: X RATED Food Porn. The X is a crossed fork & knife (food porn)
From: [personal profile] thnidu
Wherefore its source is called "the food of the gods", Theobroma.

Re: OT mostly

Date: 2017-07-01 02:00 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Hah. That's a favorite brand over here.

- Danny

Re: OT mostly

Date: 2017-07-01 04:25 am (UTC)
thnidu: my familiar. "Beanie Baby" -type dragon, red with white wings (Default)
From: [personal profile] thnidu
Where's "over here"?

Re: OT mostly

Date: 2017-07-02 05:26 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
My immediate surroundings, plus the people I interact with regularly. :p

- Danny

Re: OT mostly

Date: 2017-07-02 06:36 pm (UTC)
thnidu: Tom Baker's Dr. Who, as an anthropomorphic hamster, in front of the Tardis. ©C.T.D'Alessio http://tinyurl.com/9q2gkko (Dr. Whomster)
From: [personal profile] thnidu
Sorry — I meant "where, geographically?" I'm a linguist, and I'm interested in regional variation... huh, evidently not just dialectal. If you don't want to answer that question, no problem.

Re: OT mostly

Date: 2017-07-01 04:05 pm (UTC)
pronker: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pronker
This is the best stuff! :)

Re: OT mostly

Date: 2017-07-01 05:30 pm (UTC)
thnidu: our cat (Ista)
From: [personal profile] thnidu
Absolutely!

Your penguin, my cat.
Edited Date: 2017-07-01 09:06 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2017-07-02 04:07 am (UTC)
stardreamer: Meez headshot (Default)
From: [personal profile] stardreamer
I'm not getting excited about this one way or the other, because it sounds like they're still a long way from any human-level implementation. When the meat of the article is "we've seen promising results on snails"...

(no subject)

Date: 2017-06-30 09:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rhodielady-47.livejournal.com
That's a major problem with modern medicine. Doctors will do their best to try to winnow out the folks THEY THINK won't benefit or don't need the treatment (and of course there will be those callous doctors who think that anyone who asks for such treatment is a crybaby and should be treated as such). That will leave behind a large pool of "gray area" people who are desperate enough for help or who can't afford to see a doctor enough times to argue their case, to try self-medication.
Just today I saw an article that talked about the rising tide of opium-based drug abuse in America. Naturally not a word was said about how the Govt has bullied doctors into either not prescribing such pain killers or into doling it out with eye droppers.
:^[

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